There is a lot of interesting stuff going on in this topic, I'm really wishing that I could have read more of this while it was 'going down'. lol
Side note, even though some of you may not believe your posts are doing so, please be careful in the way you word some of your responses. Some of these attempts to 'understand' another's point of view, aren't coming across very civilly. Please make sure we are being respective of EVERYONE while keeping in mind that we represent ourselves.
That being said: I for one believe that reputation of a group's previous success(es) has a really unfair, but extremely strong presence on a scoring judge. I was not in attendance at this contest, but I have been around for awhile and have seen this sort of thing happen before. Scoring in show choir is subjective and each final result needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Findlay does what they do very well. There is a reason why some of Andy's newer groups receive previous songs from Findlay; he gets to see what they look like with great costuming, clean choreography, and great vocals. These are simply expectations that have become synonymous with Findlay "First Edition". I've been trolling the past few years' award record for Colerain and it is great to see another player in the Ohio circuit coming into play. To be honest, I can't remember much about Colerain from when I saw them in 2005, but I'm sure that things have changed and obviously for the better. However unfortunate as it may be, maybe their reputation as a top notch choir hasn't become as noted as Findlay's.
I really like the idea of having judges not know who they're scoring. That would be interesting, but I doubt it would happen because scores would likely get lost or misentered and that already happens with LABELED scoresheets.
I'd just like to bring it to everyone's attention that all judges but 1 had Colerain in first. The one who did not, is accociated with Findalay. Hmmm...
This situation is exactly my point. Now I cannot speak for the low scoring judge; perhaps he/she truly did feel that Findlay performed better. However, what I can say is that this type of situation seems to play-out a lot. Like ALOT.
Okay, before we all agure here about how I know this or why this might have been: instead, let's consider something. How do you think a competition would play out if Judges did not know the name of the choir performing? (Its probably not possible, but just consider.) Something like this would alleviate the issue of groups "winning on reputation" as well as (as the poster from WV suggests) groups competing against their formal selves. I don't know... I just think competitions would start to turn out differently if judges no longer knew who they were judging, if there was only the song and the dance.
Food for thought.
This is a double edge sword because as soon as a group does not win, they are going to call the judging to be bad because they don't "know show choir", and there is a topic that just showed up in another topic debating the opposite of what you are saying and asking for.
And my thought it why someone may be "associated" with another choir you have to look at how they truly work with the group.
I'd just like to bring it to everyone's attention that all judges but 1 had Colerain in first. The one who did not, is accociated with Findalay. Hmmm...
This situation is exactly my point. Now I cannot speak for the low scoring judge; perhaps he/she truly did feel that Findlay performed better. However, what I can say is that this type of situation seems to play-out a lot. Like ALOT.
Okay, before we all agure here about how I know this or why this might have been: instead, let's consider something. How do you think a competition would play out if Judges did not know the name of the choir performing? (Its probably not possible, but just consider.) Something like this would alleviate the issue of groups "winning on reputation" as well as (as the poster from WV suggests) groups competing against their formal selves. I don't know... I just think competitions would start to turn out differently if judges no longer knew who they were judging, if there was only the song and the dance.
Has anyone stopped to think that maybe groups with a name actually have a harder time? There is an expected excellence that most judges have for groups like First Edition. When some judges see a group's name in the lineup that has had success in the past, they form expectations. This boxes the group into a mold that can be hard to break from. Not only does the group have to compete against the competition present that day, but also the former years of said group. Not being from Findlay I'm not sure what their result sheets said but having experience with show choir judges I do know that having a name can almost be more trouble than help. Show choir is such a subjective art form and Findlay or Colerain could do the same show with the same judges on a different day and have completely different results. Both groups proved they are forces to be reckoned with and will have very successful seasons. This being said, it is not fair to diminish Findlay's close win by saying the judges were playing favorites. Findlay should feel great for this win and Colerain should feel great for giving Findlay and all the other groups a run for their money; 25 years of excellence or not.
I have recived some messages from students from Colerain saying there may be some speculation that I am a member of the Colerain showcards. let me just say i am not. the reason i post so much is because the first competition i went to this year was south dearborn. I saw Colerain and there was just something about there show that i loved. that is why i support them so much. although it has come to my attention that my posts seem to be all about Colerain it is because the only competitions i have been to is one's that colerain have been to. Let me just share who i am. I was born in sydney Australia. believe it or not i am. my parents moved here when i was 4, which also explains why i dont talk funny i guess. I went to logansport high school in indiana, which again doesnt have a show choir, however my friend who was in show choir and told me to check it out through youtube so i did. and loved it. if you read my bio you would know that i am not a student but just a observer, i accidentally clicked the wrong thing. i now have a picture to prove that i am my own real person. I will stop posting about colerain because i beleive it is getting them into hot water. however i am planning to attend fairfield crystal classic so i may be able to meet some of you who believe i am not who i say i am, but the thing is my mother is very ill so i may have to fly back to australia sometime during this week. so i am not sure. i am ABSing and i am my own person.
haha thats funny. You know what else is funny, they only people backing findlay, is people who didnt even go. You cant say that about colerain because im not from colerain, and also i believe there was another person also not from colerain.
well......i was there and i'm backing both of them. i think it was a fair fight for GC. Both put up great shows and cease to amaze the show choir community. great job to both colerain and findlay. have a great rest of the season!
I would like to preface this post by saying that I am an alumni, and nothing I say reflects on Beavercreek.
I went to Fairmont yesterday and was able to see a few daytime shows including Beavercreek, Findlay and Nitro. I was unfortunately unable to see Colerain during the day but I had heard that they had done very well. I did not think Findlay performed to their best ability during the day though it still was a great show. Therefore, I was not surprised to see that Colerain had won best instrumental and choreography as well as first place in class A while Findlay had won best vocals with 1st runner up in class A.
I came back to finals and watched all of the groups. In response to some of the posts about Findlay and Colerain, I will say that both groups are incredibly different and both have incredible shows. I did think Findlay improved exponentially from daytime to evening and that their show was so much cleaner. I loved the ballad and the last half of the show was literally on fire. The girls number and closer are both now some of my favorite show choir songs. Their vocals were solid and the choreography was difficult and still quite clean. On the other hand, Colerain had the entire audience excited with their commanding vocals. Your choreography was much sharper, though much easier and more repetitive in my opinion, than Findlay's. I thought as an overall show, it was a little unoriginal but very well done. The main reason I think Findlay triumphed during the evening performance, however, was that I thought Colerain got a little too excited. The vocals were shouty during the last half of the show and sharp during the closer. Akeem, your solo was amazing, btw. I personally did not know who was going to come out on top because Colerain and Findlay had two amazing yet incredibly different shows. However, I would not in the least bit say that Findlay did not deserve this win. They had a great night show and really did improve a lot from the day, as did all of the groups. I do wish both groups the best of luck with each of their respective seasons because I think both will finish out their seasons very well.
Beavercreek, I love you all and you had such a good show. Keep up the good work in practice these upcoming weeks and I know you will do well at Wapak.
No disrespect but if you had seen colerains pre-lims show you'd know that there was, in my opinion a greater difference than findlay show, as for colerain's choreo, tell me how it was simple. Colerain dances and sings at the same time ublike so groups who have amazing vocals, but arent really doing anything, colerain is always moving (except of course in the ballad). and also what is repetitive?
I would like to preface this post by saying that I am an alumni, and nothing I say reflects on Beavercreek.
I went to Fairmont yesterday and was able to see a few daytime shows including Beavercreek, Findlay and Nitro. I was unfortunately unable to see Colerain during the day but I had heard that they had done very well. I did not think Findlay performed to their best ability during the day though it still was a great show. Therefore, I was not surprised to see that Colerain had won best instrumental and choreography as well as first place in class A while Findlay had won best vocals with 1st runner up in class A.
I came back to finals and watched all of the groups. In response to some of the posts about Findlay and Colerain, I will say that both groups are incredibly different and both have incredible shows. I did think Findlay improved exponentially from daytime to evening and that their show was so much cleaner. I loved the ballad and the last half of the show was literally on fire. The girls number and closer are both now some of my favorite show choir songs. Their vocals were solid and the choreography was difficult and still quite clean. On the other hand, Colerain had the entire audience excited with their commanding vocals. Your choreography was much sharper, though much easier and more repetitive in my opinion, than Findlay's. I thought as an overall show, it was a little unoriginal but very well done. The main reason I think Findlay triumphed during the evening performance, however, was that I thought Colerain got a little too excited. The vocals were shouty during the last half of the show and sharp during the closer. Akeem, your solo was amazing, btw. I personally did not know who was going to come out on top because Colerain and Findlay had two amazing yet incredibly different shows. However, I would not in the least bit say that Findlay did not deserve this win. They had a great night show and really did improve a lot from the day, as did all of the groups. I do wish both groups the best of luck with each of their respective seasons because I think both will finish out their seasons very well.
Beavercreek, I love you all and you had such a good show. Keep up the good work in practice these upcoming weeks and I know you will do well at Wapak.
I would like to reiderate that I am an CHS ALUMNI. Please do not attach my opinions to those of Colerain.
To follow the pattern of reiderating: I LOVE Findlay. LOVE LOVE LOVE them. They are one of my all-time favorite choirs. I said this in my original post. I do not mean to diminishFindlay as a group. My comment that they won on reputation, however, has some validity. Obviously judges did not write that on score sheets, let's no be ignorant. My point is that it often works out that the choirs with the reputations somehow always seem to manage to pull the win, reguardless of actual performances.
I never said that Colerain was feeling bitter, I said that the specific poster was bitter. I can also assure you that half the girls didn't sing last years set.
THE END.
haha thats funny. You know what else is funny, they only people backing findlay, is people who didnt even go. You cant say that about colerain because im not from colerain, and also i believe there was another person also not from colerain.
Well I am associated with Colerain and I will gladly post. Need a face to assign to it? I'm the ballad soloist. The name's Akeem. Get to know me. We generally never post on here but I will not sit by and watch the group I helped build be made to look bitter and crude. So let's go through some things shall we..
1. Colerain never said a thing disrespectful towards Findlay. We went in knowing that they could very well win. Afterwards, we went to our homeroom and discussed how we knew this, how we felt their show was, etc. Never did we say anything negative about them.
2. To simply say because Findlay is good when you didn't attend is just ignorant. How do you know the set didn't fall over and half of the girls sang last year's show? You don't. So therefore, when you don't go somewhere or see something, you shouldn't attempt to formulate an opinion. Didn't your mother teach you not to believe what you hear?
3. If Colerain is "bitter" which I can assure you we are not, we have pretty good reason to be. All of the judges except for one scored us extremely close to a perfect show. So when we get the sheet from the judge who gave us mediocre scores, we're left to wonder what we did wrong when he provided no comments and other were amazed with us. It's hurtful and we felt cheated. To be told you aren't good enough and be given no explanation as to why is harsh. So some could argue that yes Findlay won on their name. Some could also argue that they won because we have more black people. Why? No one told us why we didn't win.
4. The people who posted as alumni, though loved, are just that: alumni. They clearly stated that they do not reflect anything that we feel. So don't assume that they do. Anyone who knows a member of Colerain's show choir knows that we are very capable of saying what we feel. And in the end, show choir is competitive and because of that, people will be upset at every competition. That's life kids.
5. Yes we feel we should have won. Yes others do as well. No we don't hate or even dislike Findlay. No you shouldn't talk about what you don't know. Yes I am finished. If you have any problems with the post, please feel free to discuss it with me personally and not make ambiguous statements about our program or the people in it. I will gladly discuss my thoughts will all who send inquiries my way.
THE END.
I never said that Colerain was feeling bitter, I said that the specific poster was bitter. I can also assure you that half the girls didn't sing last years set...
Yes, it IS for posting opinions but unfortunately we've had our fair share of spammers, trolls, and the like, and Haakon has now made it so that you must be associated with a choir.
How am i supposed to associate myself with a choir when i just said my high school never had a show choir?
Well I am associated with Colerain and I will gladly post. Need a face to assign to it? I'm the ballad soloist. The name's Akeem. Get to know me. We generally never post on here but I will not sit by and watch the group I helped build be made to look bitter and crude. So let's go through some things shall we..
1. Colerain never said a thing disrespectful towards Findlay. We went in knowing that they could very well win. Afterwards, we went to our homeroom and discussed how we knew this, how we felt their show was, etc. Never did we say anything negative about them.
2. To simply say because Findlay is good when you didn't attend is just ignorant. How do you know the set didn't fall over and half of the girls sang last year's show? You don't. So therefore, when you don't go somewhere or see something, you shouldn't attempt to formulate an opinion. Didn't your mother teach you not to believe what you hear?
3. If Colerain is "bitter" which I can assure you we are not, we have pretty good reason to be. All of the judges except for one scored us extremely close to a perfect show. So when we get the sheet from the judge who gave us mediocre scores, we're left to wonder what we did wrong when he provided no comments and other were amazed with us. It's hurtful and we felt cheated. To be told you aren't good enough and be given no explanation as to why is harsh. So some could argue that yes Findlay won on their name. Some could also argue that they won because we have more black people. Why? No one told us why we didn't win.
4. The people who posted as alumni, though loved, are just that: alumni. They clearly stated that they do not reflect anything that we feel. So don't assume that they do. Anyone who knows a member of Colerain's show choir knows that we are very capable of saying what we feel. And in the end, show choir is competitive and because of that, people will be upset at every competition. That's life kids.
5. Yes we feel we should have won. Yes others do as well. No we don't hate or even dislike Findlay. No you shouldn't talk about what you don't know. Yes I am finished. If you have any problems with the post, please feel free to discuss it with me personally and not make ambiguous statements about our program or the people in it. I will gladly discuss my thoughts will all who send inquiries my way.
If you were to read my bio, you'd know that i am just an observer. I accidentally put student, and i have already asked haakon if there was any way to change it.when i was in high school, my school didnt and still doesnt have a choir, i got into show choir through youtube. plus why is it that everyone that says a negative comment that doesnt have a associated choir, that someone always ask's what choir your from? Isnt what this is for, to express opinions?
Yes, it IS for posting opinions but unfortunately we've had our fair share of spammers, trolls, and the like, and Haakon has now made it so that you must be associated with a choir.
Sorry, but you're going to need to associate yourself with a show choir, before you continue posting here. Thanks.
If you were to read my bio, you'd know that i am just an observer. I accidentally put student, and i have already asked haakon if there was any way to change it.when i was in high school, my school didnt and still doesnt have a choir, i got into show choir through youtube. plus why is it that everyone that says a negative comment that doesnt have a associated choir, that someone always ask's what choir your from? Isnt what this is for, to express opinions?
So obviously there were some different opinions. To say Findlay won just because they are a big name group is ridiculous.
But it doesnt make sense. It was clear to see that colerain was better in finals, if someone that actually went and isnt just throwing comments around please speak up cause im sure we'd all like to hear. im not saying findlay was bad because they werent im saying last night they weren't the best group, colerain was. If any one, again that actually went, thinks differently speak up.
Kettering Fairmont Show Choir Invitational 2010
