"Secondly, the quote that judges arbitrarily "pick or pull a number out of the air" when judging the ISSMA sheet is incredibly inaccurate. There are specific criteria for each assigned grouping of numbers on an ISSMA sheet, and judges AGONIZE over how to fairly and accurately place/score/rank a show within the rubrick, or scoring method of the sheet. There were multiple occassions yesterday where judges actually held up the next group for a minute or so to make sure they were being fair to the group they were scoring, while being accurate to the sheet"
There are specific things, but the problem is there are so many things within one category, it must be extremely difficult to score every single group fairly. I still feel like it is pulling a random number out of the air, and I believe that it is one of the biggest flaws of the ISSMA scoring. If the categories were more divided up, like at most competitions, I believe the scoring would be more fair. Thanks for your input as a judge, it is very interesting to see a different point of view!!!
I think That he is right the scoring should be changed and or simpler!
QUOTE(show choirfan333 @ Mar 6 2007, 12:14 AM) 392025
This comment only helps if the score sheets were used correctly but... If you turn the score sheet over there is a rubric on the back. Judges are instructed to indicate which of the statements (along the continuum) best describe the choir. There are multiple statements under each scoring category on the sheet. Your score sheet should have circles or check marks - these statements are the judges "comments" about why you received the score you did.
Hope this helps!
Yes, the back of the sheet does help, but they don't say which part of your show put it in that "rank" or any specific problems with the show. Although, the back does help majorly in showing general problems.
QUOTE(show choir_man @ Mar 6 2007, 10:30 AM) 392150
Ok, I am going to put this in the most nicest way as possible...everyone is entitled to their own opinion about what should of, would of, and could of happened at the competition...but to plainly put it, the judges are hired to make the decisions and they did. All of the choirs that made finals deserved that spot....no matter what anyone thinks about "their show was better last year," or "they only sing unison." Those six groups worked hard to get ranked where they were. Now i personally do not agree with all of the final placements but that does not mean that I bluntly throw it out there that "this choir was way better then this one because that choir can't sing and I hated their show...but they had pretty dresses"....you know what I have to say to people that say that????....Thanks for crapping on all of those kids that have worked their butts off to perform their show...just because you did not like how they sang a song or what songs made up their show does not mean that you have the right to disrespect them and their choir's name. Also, statements made about comparing one choir's version of a song to another choir's version (that happened 9yrs ago might I add..) means nothing. Who is to say that the choir was even trying to imulate what was performed almost a decade ago???? I feel that all of the choirs deserve a pat on the back and should be congratulated on a tough competition...you could really tell that all six choir programs that were represented in the night show were very hard working!
Huntington North Congrats on a well deserved GC!
Homestead way to step it up from your placement at Franklin Central the weekend before!
Teays Valley...you have come leaps and bounds with that new director...you kids will do fine under his direction.
Dekalb....good strong show, you have improved 100% over the season...love to watch you perform!
Northrop...you deserve a huge applause for performing 4 shows that day and still stepping it up in finals.
Brownsburg, you kids did a great job and the look on your faces when you were announced into the finals was great!
Note: These are my opinions...since others have posted what they think about choirs...I wanted to post what I think about somewhat "rude like" comments from these people....I am in no way attached to any choir but i will say that I have watched plenty of competitions and if you think this one was a shocker...well then you have not seen anything.
Ok, I am going to put this in the most nicest way as possible...everyone is entitled to their own opinion about what should of, would of, and could of happened at the competition...but to plainly put it, the judges are hired to make the decisions and they did. All of the choirs that made finals deserved that spot....no matter what anyone thinks about "their show was better last year," or "they only sing unison." Those six groups worked hard to get ranked where they were. Now i personally do not agree with all of the final placements but that does not mean that I bluntly throw it out there that "this choir was way better then this one because that choir can't sing and I hated their show...but they had pretty dresses"....you know what I have to say to people that say that????....Thanks for crapping on all of those kids that have worked their butts off to perform their show...just because you did not like how they sang a song or what songs made up their show does not mean that you have the right to disrespect them and their choir's name. Also, statements made about comparing one choir's version of a song to another choir's version (that happened 9yrs ago might I add..) means nothing. Who is to say that the choir was even trying to imulate what was performed almost a decade ago???? I feel that all of the choirs deserve a pat on the back and should be congratulated on a tough competition...you could really tell that all six choir programs that were represented in the night show were very hard working!
Huntington North Congrats on a well deserved GC!
Homestead way to step it up from your placement at Franklin Central the weekend before!
Teays Valley...you have come leaps and bounds with that new director...you kids will do fine under his direction.
Dekalb....good strong show, you have improved 100% over the season...love to watch you perform!
Northrop...you deserve a huge applause for performing 4 shows that day and still stepping it up in finals.
Brownsburg, you kids did a great job and the look on your faces when you were announced into the finals was great!
Note: These are my opinions...since others have posted what they think about choirs...I wanted to post what I think about somewhat "rude like" comments from these people....I am in no way attached to any choir but i will say that I have watched plenty of competitions and if you think this one was a shocker...well then you have not seen anything.
Another thing I was disappointed about was the judges comments on the sheets, THERE WERE ALMOST NONE. One of the vocal judges had 2 words on the sheet. Both of the choreography judges only wrote a couple of sentences. If the judges want to let us know how they scored us the way they did then they should have a reason for it not just a number.
This comment only helps if the score sheets were used correctly but... If you turn the score sheet over there is a rubric on the back. Judges are instructed to indicate which of the statements (along the continuum) best describe the choir. There are multiple statements under each scoring category on the sheet. Your score sheet should have circles or check marks - these statements are the judges "comments" about why you received the score you did.
There is no way that vocally Dekalb and Northrop should be beating Brownsburg. Both groups sing very loud, in unison, or in really easy unison parts, or in octaves...that's not quality vocals. And then when they do go into parts, it's a little iffy. Between Homestead and Brownsburg...that could be really close. I really like Homestead's show and thought they were really good, but not good enough to be second to Huntington North. But I was VERY impressed with the sound that Homestead put out...both their groups have improved a lot and i think are some of the best groups Homestead has had in awhile.
In reply to the bolded...Northrop only has 1 major (by major I mean long) unison section in the guys number but we break into parts with every "Freak Out" and only 1 part "in octaves" at the end of the guys/girls number. And I'm not sure if you heard our ballad but it's not an easy ballad by any means...we never drop below 4 parts in the thing. And the majority of that song is sang in Mezzo piano and Piano, so as for singing very loudly...we were not.
Anyway, I would like to congradulate everyone that made the finals...unfortunately I was unable to see any of you due to the running back and froth from Carrol to Luers!
(There is no way that vocally Dekalb and Northrop should be beating Brownsburg. Both groups sing very loud, in unison, or in really easy unison parts, or in octaves...that's not quality vocals. And then when they do go into parts, it's a little iffy. Between Homestead and Brownsburg...that could be really close. I really like Homestead's show and thought they were really good, but not good enough to be second to Huntington North. But I was VERY impressed with the sound that Homestead put out...both their groups have improved a lot and i think are some of the best groups Homestead has had in awhile.
I didn't like Dekalb's show either, but again they performed it very well. And the girls closer outfits, the green dresses..WOWSA!!! those things are awesome!! LOVE THOSE DRESSES!!!! but their show...it jsut doesn't seem like a normal Dekalb show...and personally, it was as entertaining of Dekalb shows in the past. But I think that Brownsburg was ripped off and should have placed higher...third or fourth at least.)
I am sorry you feal this way! I am a member of Northrop and i have many friends in Dekalb. Both of us have Great Directors that know their stuff. Are show is in mostly six parts not alot of unison. Every choir sings unison it's just how good you sing it. Dekalb and us have very good Choir programs. That have one many awards. This was a hard night show I know after performing 4 times on Saterday that we worked hard. I did not see any of the other choirs but from what i heard it was a colse race i think that everyone was put were they should be. Thanks to our host at Caroll you were great!!!!!!!!
I would have to disagree with the bolded statement.
First of all, Northrop does sing better than Dekalb, but both groups still just sing really loud. The vocals are not that difficult. But here is another surprise: I wasn't a fan of Dekalb's show at all, I loved their show last year, but this year it wasn't that good. I thought Northrop's show was one of the most exciting groups I saw there. After seeing them I would have placed them higher in the rankings.
And the scoring was not 70/30 it was 60/40 because I was looking at the scores today and figured what the percentage was.
Another thing I was disappointed about was the judges comments on the sheets, THERE WERE ALMOST NONE. One of the vocal judges had 2 words on the sheet. Both of the choreography judges only wrote a couple of sentences. If the judges want to let us know how they scored us the way they did then they should have a reason for it not just a number.
In my earlier predictions I had the right groups put in finals, but my placement wasn't right, but I'm also not that surprised. I do think that the right groups were in finals, but I would have placed them differently. GREAT JOB TO ALL THE FINALISTS!
There is no way that vocally Dekalband Northrop should be beating Brownsburg. Both groups sing very loud, in unison, or in really easy unison parts, or in octaves...that's not quality vocals. And then when they do go into parts, it's a little iffy. Between Homestead and Brownsburg...that could be really close. I really like Homestead's show and thought they were really good, but not good enough to be second to Huntington North. But I was VERY impressed with the sound that Homestead put out...both their groups have improved a lot and i think are some of the best groups Homestead has had in awhile.
...
I would have to disagree with the bolded statement.
There is no way that vocally Dekalb and Northrop should be beating Brownsburg. Both groups sing very loud, in unison, or in really easy unison parts, or in octaves...that's not quality vocals. And then when they do go into parts, it's a little iffy. Between Homestead and Brownsburg...that could be really close. I really like Homestead's show and thought they were really good, but not good enough to be second to Huntington North. But I was VERY impressed with the sound that Homestead put out...both their groups have improved a lot and i think are some of the best groups Homestead has had in awhile.
I just wanted to thank you for saying this! Everyone in Homestead is so excited about how well we're doing this year, and it means a lot to us that youre placing us high in your predictions and that youre impressed with our improvement!
after watching all the finalists and such i was a lil surprised at the results...
well except for a few...
in the girls division, Brownsburg girls deserved that GC and won it because they were the best girls group. i was really impressed with how far they had come from Ben Davis and I thought they were really good...good job brownsburg girls!
as for the mixed....hmmm not so much.
Huntington North winning, they had no competition. They have a sound that no one at that competition that no one was even close to. I was really expceting Teays Valley to be a threat to them...but I was really dissappointed with Teays. I was expecting so much more and was let down. towards the end of their day show u could tell that they were getting tired. and the Magic opener that they didn't even compare to when Lafayette Jeff did it back in the nineties...if you're gonna do a song another group did, do it better cause you will always be compared to them. ALso, Teays backdrop...THAT WAS HUGE!!!!!!!! Cool, but after the curtains came off I was expecting something more elaborate...not just a light up sun with a punch of stars painted all over. But HN had no competition...they were amazing. And though i am not a big fan of HN's show, they perform EXTREMEMY WELL and have vocals that couldn't be beat by any of the groups competing at Carroll. Huntington North was the overwhelming Grand Champion but the rest of the results...hmmm let's examine.
Here's what happened
Grand Champ--Huntington North
1st Runner up--Homestead
2nd Runner up-- T.Valley
3rd Runner up--Dekalb
4th Runner up-- Northrop
5th runner up--Brownsburg
There is no way that vocally Dekalb and Northrop should be beating Brownsburg. Both groups sing very loud, in unison, or in really easy unison parts, or in octaves...that's not quality vocals. And then when they do go into parts, it's a little iffy. Between Homestead and Brownsburg...that could be really close. I really like Homestead's show and thought they were really good, but not good enough to be second to Huntington North. But I was VERY impressed with the sound that Homestead put out...both their groups have improved a lot and i think are some of the best groups Homestead has had in awhile.
I didn't like Dekalb's show either, but again they performed it very well. And the girls closer outfits, the green dresses..WOWSA!!! those things are awesome!! LOVE THOSE DRESSES!!!! but their show...it jsut doesn't seem like a normal Dekalb show...and personally, it was as entertaining of Dekalb shows in the past. But I think that Brownsburg was ripped off and should have placed higher...third or fourth at least.
As for ISSMA scoring being 60/40...Vocals should count more than choreo...it is show CHOIR
But I do agree that ISSMA scoring sucks and some judges don't know how to use it too well. But they are getting better and things are looking up there.
"Secondly, the quote that judges arbitrarily "pick or pull a number out of the air" when judging the ISSMA sheet is incredibly inaccurate. There are specific criteria for each assigned grouping of numbers on an ISSMA sheet, and judges AGONIZE over how to fairly and accurately place/score/rank a show within the rubrick, or scoring method of the sheet. There were multiple occassions yesterday where judges actually held up the next group for a minute or so to make sure they were being fair to the group they were scoring, while being accurate to the sheet"
There are specific things, but the problem is there are so many things within one category, it must be extremely difficult to score every single group fairly. I still feel like it is pulling a random number out of the air, and I believe that it is one of the biggest flaws of the ISSMA scoring. If the categories were more divided up, like at most competitions, I believe the scoring would be more fair. Thanks for your input as a judge, it is very interesting to see a different point of view!!!
The discussion on the ISSMA sheet is a valid one, and worthy of discussion. It's fair to express opinions of how the system can be improved and in what specific ways. I do, however, want to correct an earlier post.
First of all, the assumption that judges prefer a clean or tidy show to a complicated one with a few more errors. Judges are just like all of you,....we're all unique people with unique likes and taste in what we look/listen for in a show. There's not a type of show that judges all like, just as there's no one type of car that everybody in the world wants to drive or a food that's the favorite of everybody in the world. Students sometimes wonder why judges will disagree on a show, thinking that one of them must be less competent. In the nearly 100 competitions I've judged over the last 20 years, I've never agreed with a judge on placements from 1st to 18th (or however many groups are in a contest). It has nothing to do with qualifications or competence.
If judges are competent, they can still have wildly different tastes and interpretations. A good judge has a certain level of expertise, and bases their scoring decisions on their background and education, in addition, obviously, to their personal tastes or musical ear.
Secondly, the quote that judges arbitrarily "pick or pull a number out of the air" when judging the ISSMA sheet is incredibly inaccurate. There are specific criteria for each assigned grouping of numbers on an ISSMA sheet, and judges AGONIZE over how to fairly and accurately place/score/rank a show within the rubrick, or scoring method of the sheet. There were multiple occassions yesterday where judges actually held up the next group for a minute or so to make sure they were being fair to the group they were scoring, while being accurate to the sheet.
The ISSMA sheet is an interesting point of discussion, because everybody has a strong opinion about it. I think this forum is an inappropriate place for me, as a judge, to express my support and/or objection to it. I'll just say that a good judge can fairly and accurately use basically ANY system to arrive at a well-reasoned and thoughtful decision, and help educate a group on ways to improve through notes and a good cassette critique.
Great discussion about a very interesting topic! God Bless, Damon Brown
ISSMA should definitely change their scoring. Not only is it weighted extremely weird, but the judges just pick numbers out of their head to give you. It's hard to tell what specifically you need to work on. It sucks, people have been saying that for a while, and yet it still hasn't been changed! And judges do prefer a clean, easy show over a hard, sloppy show, but difficulty should be a factor, because it is easy to do simple choreography clean, but not so easy to do difficult choreography clean.
Thanks to Carroll for a great invite (except for running so far behind ) I know that I had a lot of fun!
ISSMA should definitely change their scoring. Not only is it weighted extremely weird, but the judges just pick numbers out of their head to give you. It's hard to tell what specifically you need to work on. It sucks, people have been saying that for a while, and yet it still hasn't been changed! And judges do prefer a clean, easy show over a hard, sloppy show, but difficulty should be a factor, because it is easy to do simple choreography clean, but not so easy to do difficult choreography clean.
Thanks to Carroll for a great invite (except for running so far behind ) I know that I had a lot of fun!
To me 70% to 30% is weighted a little too much. There are elements of both vocals and choreography that affect the other. For example, if you want good vocals you need excelent posture, and posture is more of a choreographical element of the show. On the other hand if a choir truly sounds good (not just loud but your vocals TRULY are truly good) then that choir will automatically have good posture, and at least decent facials which is a big part of choreography.
To me if a choir has bad vocals it is easier to tell because you can easily tell if that choir is singing flat, sharp, too fast, too slow, etc. On the other hand in choreography if 1 person messes up and the judge (or audience member for that matter) is looking somewhere else on stage, or the judge is writing comments. Then that mistake is never known.
To me that means that vocals is where most choirs are going to find a big problem. So to me vocals should be worth more, but NOT 70/30. I would think that Dekalb had the right percentage-60/40.
Carroll Classic 2007
) I know that I had a lot of fun!