I just want to say GREAT JOB to all the FC Singers out there!!!!!!!!
Dont worry about what everyone else is whinning about on here! You guys are amazing.
(and besides that you had to jump over the CG kids who were already on stage before the awards started) Some people just dont know that their is a difference between excitment and cockyness.
QUOTE(ginetard @ Mar 10 2008, 12:33 AM) [snapback]426842[/snapback]
I try not to post much about groups and their classiness because of the sensitivity of the topic, but reading this thread gives me no exception. So here goes.
First off, why are so many people being negative?? Everyone should be congratulating each other on everyone's great performances in what seems like a very close competition. Reading this thread, it sounds like Franklin Central got a little out of line during the awards, but every group has their share of craziness. If I read correctly, Center Grove was ahead by 15 weighted points after prelims (not sure if its true), but if it is, that is a very large deficit for anyone to overcome, especially over a top-notch group CG.
So, put yourself into FC's perspective. Maybe they thought they had a very slim chance to win. Maybe they felt disappointed in themselves for their first performance. Maybe they were ready to accept defeat. Then out of nowhere, CG is announced first runner-up, and FC's name has yet to be called. How would you react in that situation?
Now, yes. It is disrespectful for a group not to congratulate or applaud the groups they competed with, but I bet they stood up and clapped for every other group before CG was announced.
I am not trying to defend FC for what happened. I just think that some people are overreacting about what happened.
But for anyone from FC getting mad at CG for their reactions, put yourself in their shoes. They were probably stoked after prelims. They probably gave a heck of a performance for finals to secure their victory. They were probably ready to storm the stage for their championsip. Then...they are announced first runner-up. I know for fact those kids were completely heart-broken, disappointed, angry, etc. They probably felt like they had been cheated. That hurts. I mean that really hurts.
For them to have the class they had that night is truly astonishing. They should be proud of themselves in every way in knowing that so many people have defended them after last night because so many people love them. But to any of those who posted about FC having no class is just as guilty. If you ask me, no matter how classes a group is, I think it's just as bad for someone to bash a group and say how undeserving they were. That's just nonsense. Every group works hard every week and every year to put on a show for their audience, so it's hard to say that any group is undeserving on any night.
I bet both groups practice nothing but class, it's just that sometimes groups get carried away with adrenaline. So after a very long post, congratulations to all performing groups. ALL of you should be proud for your efforts on and off stage. Thank you.
Wow, is all I can say. I believe a few people missed the point of what I was saying. I see maybe one show a year...and yes young people (and older) get excited, but this was a competition, and I was one person with my opinion, who sees one show a year...if I am lucky.
I came away with this impression and my point in this is.....excitement, winning, losing, class, bad behavior, wonderful programs, talent, performance, and the whole picture, I get in one night and that is what I walk away with.
I saw class in the behavior of Center Grove, and do not apologize for it.....the other two schools (and I only mentioned two others not the whole day or every school there), showed specific behavior that I referred too openly and in perspective of the competion they were in with Center Grove. I walked away after one evening with the opinion I am entitled too....and would guess I am not the only one who walked away with that opinion.
I am sure I am not the only person that only gets to see one performance a year....and when that is the case, maybe if it had been a week before it would have been different behavior by the same schools I mentioned....I have no way of knowing that, I wasn't there and won't be there for the next.
My point is...shouldn't behavior be as consistent every week as you strive to make your performances consistent.
I didn't mean to offend one, I was stating what I witnessed as someone not constantly involved in your programs and what I took away from one night of attending performances.
I still give Kudo's to Chris Pratt - his team of assistants, and the performers, for what I am sure was a hard defeat, for showing outstanding class in the way they handled it.
For those who made reference to the class of this writer, keep in mind, you have to understand class to recognize it.... and I was not attacking an individual....I was making reference to a group of individuals combined - I did not pick on any one person....and wouldn't, that would have shown a lack of class on my part.
I have heard from many because of this post....I have heard "thank you"...and I have heard "thank you" in terms of it being something that would be addressed in the future....so I leave you with this.,..
If it helps one group give one person who only gets to see them one time a year with a better impression...this post served it's purpose.
I'm proud of all the performers, band members, tech crews, directors and all others that put the time and effort into this type of an event....it takes time and dedication...you all deserve to be congratulated for the efforts.
From all I can see, there has only been one post by a Center Grove member, and every complaint about Franklin Central has been from bystanders who were either in the balcony with Franklin Central at the time, or they witnessed the security people (tech dads, etc.) having to PHYSICALLY FORCE the FC Singers away from the stage after being called.
Center Grove was ahead in the day show by FOUR weighted points, which probably is about the equivalent of fifteen RAW points, which is most likely the number 15 came from.
In finals, Jim Fronczek, a vocal judge added for the night show, placed Center Grove SIGNIFICANTLY lower than any other judge. Fifteen points lower, to be exact. This is what made the difference between the day and night shows.
Without Fronczek judging, the outcome would still have been different than in the day - Center Grove would've been GC and Franklin Central would've risen up to 1RU.
Congratulations to all the groups on very successful shows! Good luck at state!
EDITTTTTTTTTTT
I forgot to add that FC won by .4 points. This equals two raw points.
Since this is topic is about one of my biggest SC pet peeves, I feel like weighing in.
First of all, I don't care who you are, how many times you've won or lost, where you were in prelims, how badly you want it- self-restraint is not that difficult a concept. I wasn't at this competition, I have no idea what actually happened or to what extent, but I am quite bothered by people making excuses for any group who cannot practice respect and self-control. There isn't an excuse.
Secondly, to whoever said it starts with the director... sadly, that is not always the case. In 2006, I watched as students from a group stood and applauded the two groups that placed above them, while the director of the group pouted, got angry, then wheeled right out of the awards ceremony. Thankfully, the students knew what to do on their own.
I try not to post much about groups and their classiness because of the sensitivity of the topic, but reading this thread gives me no exception. So here goes.
First off, why are so many people being negative?? Everyone should be congratulating each other on everyone's great performances in what seems like a very close competition. Reading this thread, it sounds like Franklin Central got a little out of line during the awards, but every group has their share of craziness. If I read correctly, Center Grove was ahead by 15 weighted points after prelims (not sure if its true), but if it is, that is a very large deficit for anyone to overcome, especially over a top-notch group CG.
So, put yourself into FC's perspective. Maybe they thought they had a very slim chance to win. Maybe they felt disappointed in themselves for their first performance. Maybe they were ready to accept defeat. Then out of nowhere, CG is announced first runner-up, and FC's name has yet to be called. How would you react in that situation?
Now, yes. It is disrespectful for a group not to congratulate or applaud the groups they competed with, but I bet they stood up and clapped for every other group before CG was announced.
I am not trying to defend FC for what happened. I just think that some people are overreacting about what happened.
But for anyone from FC getting mad at CG for their reactions, put yourself in their shoes. They were probably stoked after prelims. They probably gave a heck of a performance for finals to secure their victory. They were probably ready to storm the stage for their championsip. Then...they are announced first runner-up. I know for fact those kids were completely heart-broken, disappointed, angry, etc. They probably felt like they had been cheated. That hurts. I mean that really hurts.
For them to have the class they had that night is truly astonishing. They should be proud of themselves in every way in knowing that so many people have defended them after last night because so many people love them. But to any of those who posted about FC having no class is just as guilty. If you ask me, no matter how classes a group is, I think it's just as bad for someone to bash a group and say how undeserving they were. That's just nonsense. Every group works hard every week and every year to put on a show for their audience, so it's hard to say that any group is undeserving on any night.
I bet both groups practice nothing but class, it's just that sometimes groups get carried away with adrenaline. So after a very long post, congratulations to all performing groups. ALL of you should be proud for your efforts on and off stage. Thank you.
I'm not sure the reference about a lot of things looking similar in CG's 07 show and FC's 08 show meant necessarily the choreography - they could not BE any more different. I think the reference was made about the picture. And you squelched that very well.
Ahh, the picture of me. It's gone through a couple different lives. First, it appeared in FC's 2005 show during a piece called "show choircat.com" (interesting considering the topic) which was conceived by Bill Griffel, Jennifer Dice, Greg Saunders and myself, then written by Jeff Haught.
Fast forward 2 years and it made a trip 500 miles west to Cedar Rapids Iowa, where it was used in a song I wrote for Cedar Rapids Kennedy, called "Unhappiness" (later changed to Show Choir Lament).
This year, Carroll "recycled" the piece (something that Andy Haines, Mike Weaver, myself and many others do) when they did it as part of their competition show. So, I guess to answer your question, no it wasn't stolen from any other group, as the picture has made various reincarnations for 4 years. In terms of my choreography looking like CG's, I simply have to disagree. Andy Haines is brilliant and I have tremendous respect for him, but our styles are pretty different. In 26 years, first time I've ever heard anyone say that. Oh well, I guess we both DO use straight arms a lot!
I respond to criticisms on behalf of group's I work with because I know that I won't fire back in anger like many people would do when they're faced with negative comments. It's not hippocritical at all (where's my spellchecker,...."HELP" ANA OR JORGE!!), as coaches (and I guess I'm more or less an assistant coach) have spoken out as advocates for their students or teams for decades. Sometimes students will say things they later regret online, but the damage has already been done to a group's reputation. I'm sorry to say I've hurt people emotionally in anger many times over the course of my life, but I think I've learned you can't out-argue the web. I love my students, am proud of each and every one of them, and when I see things being said, I try to respond in the most positive and respectful way I know how, as I'm now doing.
To those who were offended by what seems to have been perceived as inappropriate actions or over-zealousness by some of the FC people, I sincerely apologize. I was out of the state at a workshop, but I know the topic will be discussed and lessons will be learned. God Bless, Damon Brown
I just want to give a huge congratulations to all the groups that competed at Pike yesterday. I was there all day and saw some really wonderful things!
Some happy thoughts...
Carroll- I lovelovelove your novelty number!!! I had to laugh out loud a couple of times and people were giving me looks, but it was fabulous!
LN- Your show is so classy!! I am obsessed with your ballad, and your soloist is incredible.
Warren- My favorite show of the day. LOVELOVELOVELOVE IT!!! The song selection, choreography...everything...just loved it. Especially the guys/girls numbers. And Stephen, congrats on best male soloist. You completely deserve it!
Brownsburg- You all have so much energy! And your closer is absolutely incredible! The vocals that you guys have while still dancing that hard is amazing. And the guy front row center was working it like nobody's business. I was so impressed.
Zionsville-FABULOUS closer. There were a few of us dancing it the rest of the day...nerds, we know... And your ballad was great, too.
Debtones- Obsessed with your show. So diva, so fabulous, LOVED it. A well earned GC.
FC High Voltage- Oh my goodness, you girls are great! Mr. Gardner has done such great things with you all! I was sitting pretty close, so I could basically only see the front row, but y'all are working it to the extreme! Loved it.
CG- Wedding Number: INCREDIBLE. Closer: SO FIERCE. You all are incredible, and you should know it. I really enjoyed your show.
FC- Dear lord, you all are so good. Your vocals were out of this world, and your choreography was SO clean! Definitely stepped it up for the night show in a big way. And whoever the 3 female divas in the front row center for your closer are: GET IT. You worked it harder than any performers on that stage yesterday. HOT
Pike Mystiques- I am SOOOOO proud of you girls! You have grown so much this year! I loved your show! Congrats on a great season! 08 Seniors, especially, you have so much to be proud of.
Pike Encores- You all know how obsessed I am with you. But after that performance, everyone else should be, too! FABULOUS. Lorne, even though you had to step in at the last minute, that solo was hot. Megan Fletcher, you know you're fabulous. Definitely deserving of the diva torch Allan, I did not know you could sing like that. Eric freakin Lewis- GET IT! You worked that show like there was no tomorrow. And that's all I could remember that I wanted to say, but you guys have done some great work this year. Congratulations on your work, and carry it into concert season! I'm not the only creepy alumnus who wants to see you do well!!!
QUOTE(rock_luver @ Mar 9 2008, 10:14 PM) [snapback]426781[/snapback]
hmm... a wonderful victory- i think not
I find it interesting that you tell your FC-ers to not respond to any criticism, but then you always respond to criticism to try to make it legit- you arent being a very good example to your students.
and also- its obvious that you have so much admiration for center grove- especially andy haines because a lot of things from your FC show look like CGs last year - way to be creative!
hmm doesnt carroll have a picture of you in their show.. sounds like cg's picture of their choregrapher last year.. again, interesting
You speak like "dandydance"... almost exactly like dandydance.
As for the picture of the choreographer in the show... it's hard to steal that when he also had the same song done by one of his groups last year.
QUOTE(goinggray @ Mar 9 2008, 10:36 AM) [snapback]426575[/snapback]
...To the FC people, you won a hard-fought victory last night over one of the most amazing programs in the nation, Center Grove. I have NOTHING but respect and admiration for the job that Chris Pratt, Jennifer Dice and Andy Haines do year after year. They're incredibly talented professionals, and their groups are representative of their wonderful skills as educators and artists. It certainly could've gone either way and been a legitimate decision by the panel. There were also a number of other groups there (WC, Brownsburg, Zionsville, Carroll, LN) that are terriffic programs with rich history and tradition.
Celebrate your win, and do not respond to any criticism you read. People are more than entitled to feel as they do and make those feelings known. However, do not apologize for a wonderful victory you earned in a fierce competition. Keep your eye on the ball for next week against what will be the strongest ever ISSMA field (simply because more groups have applied than ever before). I'm proud of you, your championships and captions this year, and how far each of you have come as performers.
God Bless, Damon Brown
hmm... a wonderful victory- i think not
I find it interesting that you tell your FC-ers to not respond to any criticism, but then you always respond to criticism to try to make it legit- you arent being a very good example to your students.
and also- its obvious that you have so much admiration for center grove- especially andy haines because a lot of things from your FC show look like CGs last year - way to be creative!
hmm doesnt carroll have a picture of you in their show.. sounds like cg's picture of their choregrapher last year.. again, interesting
QUOTE(dandydance @ Mar 9 2008, 08:22 PM) [snapback]426701[/snapback]
OK, if you want to talk about margins, lets talk about the margin of error in judges from the day show to the night show. Why would only one judge be added in the night show for vocals and none for visual? Check the scores with and without the judge added and you tell me how fair this ISMA scoring is. U seem to think FC made some remarkable comeback in the night show and that is not the case.
Subjectivity is the name of the game and of course an added phantom judge on a weighted scoring system that is no better than anything. Check it out and get back to me.
Why was only one judge added to the night show in vocals only? Check it out and get back to me.
And where is this monitor that is supposed to be checking the judges scores? Check it out and get back to me.
Something is rotten and it isn't in Denmark!
Well if 60% of the scoring is based off of vocals, then it makes sense to add a third judge. If one judge out of two happens to give a group really high vocal scores, then there is inconsistency in the scoring. However, if there are three judges, and two of them give a group similar scores and the other gives a crazy score, the score will at least be a lot closer. For instance:
Now obviously I don't think there would be that big of a difference in one judge's score, but I'm just trying to prove a point. With that said, I think adding another judge helps make the weighted score closer. It only seems logical to me. " border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />
QUOTE(NEA07 @ Mar 9 2008, 06:34 PM) [snapback]426709[/snapback]
Could you explain where Damon was suggesting that FC made some amazing comback, I dont see that anywhere in his post.
He mentioned it in an earlier post, but I'm sure Damon wasn't there to actually see them perform, so my guess is Damon was making a statement based on the scores, which is what any normal person would do.
QUOTE(goinggray @ Mar 9 2008, 10:36 AM) [snapback]426575[/snapback]
This post makes an interesting and intelligent point, but forgets part of the equation. The major determining factor in most (but certainly not all) competitions, whether they use an ISSMA sheet or not boils down to MARGINS. For instance, group A wins vocals by 2 points, yet group B wins choreography by 12 points. Even with the 60/40 ISSMA split, the group that won visuals will probably win the contest based on point margins converted into percentages, even though they came in 2nd in vocals.
I've worked with groups that have lost choreography,won vocals, and yet LOST a competition. I've had groups win choreography, lose vocals, and yet WIN a competition. This is why the eternal argument exists of whether scoring should be done by:
-Strict points
-Strict rankings
-Points converted to rankings
-Majority rule of the panel
-Olympic scoring (tossing out the high and the low score)
I don't know that there's a perfect solution, but I know people keep trying to refine and improve the system each year.
To the FC people, you won a hard-fought victory last night over one of the most amazing programs in the nation, Center Grove. I have NOTHING but respect and admiration for the job that Chris Pratt, Jennifer Dice and Andy Haines do year after year. They're incredibly talented professionals, and their groups are representative of their wonderful skills as educators and artists. It certainly could've gone either way and been a legitimate decision by the panel. There were also a number of other groups there (WC, Brownsburg, Zionsville, Carroll, LN) that are terriffic programs with rich history and tradition.
Celebrate your win, and do not respond to any criticism you read. People are more than entitled to feel as they do and make those feelings known. However, do not apologize for a wonderful victory you earned in a fierce competition. Keep your eye on the ball for next week against what will be the strongest ever ISSMA field (simply because more groups have applied than ever before). I'm proud of you, your championships and captions this year, and how far each of you have come as performers.
God Bless, Damon Brown
OK, if you want to talk about margins, lets talk about the margin of error in judges from the day show to the night show. Why would only one judge be added in the night show for vocals and none for visual? Check the scores with and without the judge added and you tell me how fair this ISMA scoring is. U seem to think FC made some remarkable comeback in the night show and that is not the case.
Subjectivity is the name of the game and of course an added phantom judge on a weighted scoring system that is no better than anything. Check it out and get back to me.
Why was only one judge added to the night show in vocals only? Check it out and get back to me.
And where is this monitor that is supposed to be checking the judges scores? Check it out and get back to me.
Oh..and PS- Yes, FC won, and they may have got a little too excited...but that does not mean they have no class. I dont understand why people try and make rude remarks on this website, not only dealing with FC, but with many other choirs. In my opinion I do believe that if you do not like the way FC, or any choir has behaved, then maybe contact them personally and let them know, instead of making it public for the whole show choir community to see. It is hard to hold in excitement sometimes, I know for a fact FC is not the only choir that has ever done this.
Every group did amazing at this competition, and im sure in the judges eyes they wish that they could pick more than one winner. show choir has become so competitive and judgemental..think about why you all are really here. It is becasue you LOVE to perform, you love music, and all of these people share this with you. It is hard to find something liek this once you are out of HS, so enjoy and love it while it lasts, make long friendships. Its SO worth it! =]
QUOTE(JFreak213 @ Mar 9 2008, 01:18 PM) [snapback]426625[/snapback]
I almost died when FC tore off those beautiful IU shirts and reversed them to show a nasty purdue logo.
I don't know if I could have sang the purdue fight song without my throat exploding.
haha, i will admit..a HOOSIER at heart, I ALWAYS sing a long with the IU fight song, however, Purdue needs some credit too...i guess. Hah. That novelty number is awesome, different from what FC has done in the past. I am amazed of how clean the sign flipping is though. Anyway, CONGRATS FC!
QUOTE(ANoteworthyFan @ Mar 9 2008, 08:20 AM) [snapback]426528[/snapback]
I certainly hope this didn't surprise you, classielassie. They do it every time. I am not entirely sure how a "dance break" that involves no dancing can score well all season in a category entitled "Artistry," but their vocals I suppose are undeniably strong. I just do not understand the whole theme and design of their comedy number.
LN, you had a very strong showing last week at North Central's competition, and from what I saw when I was there, you certainly deserved a finals slot this weekend. Everybody gets a bad draw sometimes - Lawrence Central got it last week, and you got it this week. Best wishes for the rest of your season!
CG, everything about your show just blows me away. I suppose I don't have anything else to say except that, to me, there is no comparison to the technique and classiness with which you perform your show. There is simply no one else out there than even attempts to do what you do choreographically and in terms of show design. Having seen your show several times this year, I find myself wishing you could've come away the GC.
Warren, I've been so glad to see you doing better and better in placements as the season goes on - I love your show, I adore your ballad, and your red-headed soloist in King of the World (who I believe had a solo in When Will God Save the People last year) is PHENOMENAL. What tremendous amounts of talent you have that group. Keep it up!
agreed. show choir needs to be classed up quite a bit. every year it gets trashier and more political. This causes the GC slot to go home to an undeserving group. Groups such as northrop, fc, and highland have shown consistent rude behavior and bad sportsmanship through out the year, this may have been caused by a victory or a loss; regardless it has been relevent and noted upon many individuals in the show choir communirty.
Pike MusicFest 2008
WAY TO GO GUYS AND GALS
Allan, I did not know you could sing like that. Eric freakin Lewis- GET IT! You worked that show like there was no tomorrow. And that's all I could remember that I wanted to say, but you guys have done some great work this year. Congratulations on your work, and carry it into concert season! I'm not the only creepy alumnus who wants to see you do well!!!
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