As a judge from this event, I do think it is important for the official rule in question to be mentioned:
No taped or recorded back-up music is allowed. Sequenced and other pre-entered synthesized rhythm sections are allowed. However, whole instrumental parts or songs may not be pre-entered. The back-up ensemble is judged as an integral part of a group's performance.
It is clear from Twinsburg's reputation that they have a stellar program and that there is much talent. We all know that each event has it's own set of rules and things can be interpreted in many ways. However, as a panel we were in agreement that this rule as stated above, was in violation based on the performance. It is unfortunate for all parties involved, and not something that any competition, or judging panel would take lightly.
Ok, I guess I'm showing my naïveté, but what is a "click track"???
A click track is traditionally just that - a track with clicks. In live performances, it's most often used by a drummer like a metronome to help him/her keep perfect time. This may be desired when there are special effects in play and it's very important that things are synchronized, or if there are other audio cues that have to be matched precisely. The house doesn't hear it and it doesn't augment the choral sound in any way. There is an example of a basic 4/4 click track on the Wikipedia page here.
They are also very helpful in certain recording situations where keeping time between different musicians would otherwise be very challenging. If you ever heard the tracks I made for Powerhouse back in 2009 & 2010, we had to record the singers before school got out for summer but didn't have access to the band until later. If the singers were just singing to their own tempo, it would likely drift all over the place and be a royal pain for the drummer to come in after the fact and match it. So we gave every singer their own set of headphones (yes, 50ish pairs!) with a click track and had them sing to that. We then had the drummer play with the same click and we had two recordings in perfect time that were easy to match together in post.
Sequencing and/or straight up direct audio playback is a totally different beast, and I have no idea why it is being lumped into the same category as a click track. These are preprogrammed or prerecorded elements - often sounds which can't be reproduced effectively in the constraints of a show choir band setting. Burbank used some in their 2012 show, most notably the dubstep section (which as far as I can tell was just unapologetically lifted from the original Skrillex track). A band could attempt to emulate that kind of sound live (and I saw another show choir try to do something similar), but some things just require extensive digital manipulation that is incredibly difficult (if not impossible) to replicate exactly - especially in real time. If you're familiar with the song "Hide and Seek" by Imogen Heap, for example, they use tuning and digital distortion to modify the vocals and although the melody can obviously be sung by anyone, you will never get the sound of the original track with just voices alone (even though it's presented "a cappella").
I remember my choir used some sequencing back in the day to automate some challenging orchestral swoops on the keyboard which would have required multiple keyboards and/or players to pull off live due to the layering of several sound patches that needed to be played at the same time. The keyboard player did all of the playing, but he programmed the parts ahead of time so that when played back live the results were more complex than would be possible on-the-fly by himself alone. It definitely helped add depth to the sound, and made possible things that a 5-piece rock combo just physically couldn't do by themselves.
There's a grey area to using sequencing and or prerecorded type stuff in show choir and I can definitely see both sides. If you use it sparingly and for special emphasis, I can see a valid use for it. The extreme other side of the spectrum would just be a choir performing to an audio CD. And really, what difference is there between preprogrammed audio coming out of a synthesizer or recorded audio being played back from a CD? I think most of us appreciate and value show choir bands - especially ones primarily comprised of students - and it may seem logical to want to "ban" any kind of prerecorded or sequenced audio from show choir performances. But what if it is the cackle of a crow, the clap of thunder, or some other sound effect that is only used once during the show to enhance a production? What about that Skrillex sample Burbank used that pushed all kinds of boundaries not long ago? Where do you draw the line? It's a great topic for discussion.
I personally would not endorse a situation where groups were using prerecorded vocals to enhance their show... and even vocal pads like Brock was mentioning start to toe the line of good taste to me. I do think 'choir oos' are different than strings, though they share frequency and tone and there is certainly some grey area there too. All of this is subjective (just like the judging of show choir as a whole). That's why, regardless of anyone's opinion, the only thing that really matters is what a particular competition's rules state. In this case, as I understand it, Mr. Lanoue had spelled out very clearly what they were bringing to the table ahead of time and everything was approved. I don't have any intimate knowledge of this situation so I am certainly not speaking for anyone, but if this was indeed what transpired, then it's an open and shut case. Judges are there to judge the choirs on vocal and visual ability, not make subjective decisions based on their own beliefs (I disagree with JWill on this - I believe it is up to the contest organizers to make a call about the validity of what happens at their contest, not the panel). Regardless, I'm guessing we will hear more about this before too long... if there were emails sent back and forth detailing expectations, for example, that should make things pretty clear.
I guess I digressed a little... TLDR; go to wikipedia if you are still unclear on what a click track is.
A click track is basically just a track live musicians play a long with. Typically the conductor/drummer wear headphones to stay with the track. We use them almost every year at Naperville North in the musical - just to add extra synth sounds that the keyboard players can't cover, or to add a techno beat to a megamix, or any number of things. I always create them myself in Logic, it's not that difficult and doesn't require paying thousands of dollars. Sometimes the drummer/conductor are hearing a track with a constant metronome in their ears, but the track going out through the sound system into the house does not have that. They can be a very cool tool to supplement your live musicians. I would never personally want to use one for show choir just because of all the extra stuff it requires, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it - groups that utilize this technology are typically just not eligible for combo awards (because everything's not being played live).
My thoughts on the vocal thing. I was not at Southmont and did not see/hear the performance in question - I just want to preface this portion by saying that. Every keyboard/synthesizer on the market has pads that are called 'choir oohs' or 'choir ahhs' or something like that. These are no different on the keyboard than a string pad, or a sweeping pad or any other kind of pad. They are not sampled or recorded voices, they are just a pad that sounds like an ooh vowel or an ahh vowel and still have to be played live just like any other patch on the keyboard. Groups have been using these for years in show choir - I never have because, at least on the keyboards we use, they sound kind of cheesy (and there are pads I like better that do the same thing). To me, this is absolutely no different than playing a string patch or any other one of the patches on the keyboard. To me, this is completely different than recording singers and playing them back through a click track. One I have no problem with whatsoever, the other I do.
Just my two cents - I have no knowledge whatsoever about which of these things, or something entirely different, was the case at Southmont.
Ok, I guess I'm showing my naïveté, but what is a "click track"??? Is it literally just the 4 clicks before the start of the song? Or is it a rehearsal track, one with accompaniment, but not the original, like a karaoke version? I know some of the rehearsal tracks we've used this year have some backup vocals on them, and they can DEFINITELY make it sound like people are singing when they aren't, or they can add parts that aren't in the actual vocal arrangements, but were in the original recording. I'm just confused about what we're actually talking about here, and it sounds like I'm not the only one.
So as a performer, I've performed with click tracks numerous times. Even on Broadway they use them. My HS drama department hired a guy to make them for a production and it didn't cost "thousands of dollars". I would really love to know how they were used to enhance vocals though. enhance the band, yes. Enhance the choreo, yep. But vocals? I know it's done often in the professional world due to large dance numbers/ touring/ chorus members in a lot of shows aren't the best at singing (dancers)... It is what it is...
I'm just confused if they were DQ'd for using a "recorded accompaniment" , having vocals on the "click track", or this "click track" enhanced the vocals by doing something I could simply do with a mid price ranged keyboard?
Just wanting to know so other choirs can be cautious in case it is something we also do...
On another note, is there a site for pictures? Would love to see how fabulous twinsburg looked.
#hairforgods #youcanneverweartomanyrhinestones
As you can see, I am hardly familiar with how to operate this site... I stand by all of my previous posts and continue to love the debate aspect of this site. Thank you for allowing us a conversational forum for which to discuss our art form. Clearly, we have much about which to disagree Personally, I appreciate that. So, thank you to the operators of this site for all that you provide, and best of luck to all in 2016
If you stand by all of your previous posts, why did you delete one of them?
As you can see, I am hardly familiar with how to operate this site... I stand by all of my previous posts and continue to love the debate aspect of this site. Thank you for allowing us a conversational forum for which to discuss our art form. Clearly, we have much about which to disagree Personally, I appreciate that. So, thank you to the operators of this site for all that you provide, and best of luck to all in 2016
I guess I wonder whatever happened to all-student bands, just playing the music on the page. I am very proud of the INCREDIBLE student-only bands that we have in Iowa.
I do not want to get into the back and forth, but my credibility has been called on the floor here..
We do not apologize for our use of sequencing and sampling. We use it in addition to the high school musicians who support the group with Scott Hamler and myself. We are always very upfront about it by email with competition directors before we attend a competition to make sure we are transparent on what we use in regards to technology, and receive approval. We often compete against groups who use sequencing, sampling, professional musicians (which I include any non student as), and bands that amplify horn sections or drummers. We have used a combination of these things in the past, and as with at Southmont, are always upfront about. We have nothing to gain by hiding anything. Scott Hamler and I personally use this technology, and pay nothing for it from any professional or online source.
To address Mr. Childress' concerns- 1. Scott Hamler and I offered to show the technology immediately after we were told they were ruling us in violation of a rule and to play everything for them. 2. We did offer to take band penalties on day show, and perform in what ever capacity in finals, including with only a drum set and piano.
I would NEVER bring my 50+ students involved in GE 6 hours from home, spend thousands of dollars on travel and hotel, compete against directors who are great friends, compete against my own BROTHER who was a singer/dancer in a competing group, with my MOTHER in the audience, to completely disregard rules and try to cheat. That is an attack on my character to even allude to that, and yes, I am offended.
There are many parts of this I am not at liberty to discuss at this point. At some point in the future, a statement will be made on behalf of the Twinsburg Schools. I ask that people stop taking sides, stop trying to say what should have happened, and stop making statements or asking questions that are fishing for a negative response or implying guilt or improper behavior/decisions on anyone.
You don't know the entire truth of the details in this situation- but, a positive discussion can happen on what can be done in the future. This is about kids.
If what Mr. Lanue says is true, then why not insist that the contest director and the judges who raised concerns listen to your click track from beginning to end? I mean, they delayed prelim awards for 45 minutes. In that time GE could have proven their case. If I was their director I would have 1. Insisted on playing our click track and 2. Said that we would gladly perform our show in finals without it. Just sayin
Just to clarify, Mr. Childress, any users' first two posts on this site have to go through a crew member's approval, regardless of who you actually are, so as to prevent spam, etc. I just saw our site's creator, Haakon, on just a few minutes ago, and our other staff member, Jeff, has been largely busy updating the website and such. So, I can imagine your posts had mistakenly gotten to the bottom of the pile of a list of things to do.
Looking back at some of your previous posts that seem to be hidden for whatever reason (they are still public to anyone if they just click on your profile) it seems that you agree with the majority of us that if a rule had been broken, then Mr. Feichter was to be praised in disqualifying a group for their actions. However, can you provide substantial proof that Mr. Lanoue used a click track to enhance his choir's performance? It seems that any director with any sort of self-respect for himself and his choirs would not enhance their vocals artificially, especially so early on in the season at a pre-season competition, two months before competition season gets underway.
Also, looking at one of your posts, calling this site a sham, especially in regards to the large number of people who were not at the competition itself, I understand what you're saying and where you're coming from, but the majority of the members (with a few exceptions) have expressed curiosity as to what happened and why it happened, mostly because this confusion is happening to a well-respected and beloved choir in Twinsburg. This site was created so that people in our world of show choir could connect to each other over long distances and so that we could express our thoughts and opinions on things that are happening outside of our own little bubble. If you look at any of the events on this site, more often than not, at least half of the posts are from users that didn't attend the event, or are probably not even in that state for that matter! And I think that's what makes this site ingeniously spectacular.
Congrats to Manteno on the win!! I'm sure I can't be the only one still having more questions about the disqualification of Twinsburg. With the information given I've got a sense of what occurred but when it comes to group with a reputation for good shows like Twinsburg being disqualified I'd love to know exactly what happened or the specific rule that was broken. I'm sure those who are apart of close followers of the group know the entire story but may have been asked not to speak on it which would be completely understandable. But if anyone has any other information and are willing to share it'd be much appreciated!
As a director (full disclosure, I was formerly at Southmont) who competed at Southmont, I can only say that I commend and appreciate justin Feichter for what he did yesterday. In his defense, THE JUDGES brought their concerns to his attention. I'm not endorsing his decision nor agreeing with the panel, but I think this forum has placed unecssary blame on the entire Southmont school system. Click tracks have been around for years and used by churches and other theme parks and the like in order to reinforce live performances. For those of us who insist on live experiences for our kids, the use of these systems seems unfair. The GE kids are amazing and always give first class performances, but if they are using a click track as accompaniment (in any way shape or form),how can you compare that to a live performance of another group? In essence, you are delivering a polished, professional recording to be compared with live amateurs. It's nearly incomparable. Before judging the results, do some homework. Google "click track." For several thousand dollars, any choir in the nation could incorporate this into their show. Is that really fair to everyone else?
Great evening of competition and was a great time! Some clear questions with the judging in my opinion. MAGIC killed it in the finals and deserved the win but just do not understand how the order flipped around so much from the prelims just a couple hours before... Also, seems to me that when the small mixed get mixed in with the large mixed, they do not give them much of a chance. With that being said and the way the large mixed flipped the order around, why even have a 2nd phase to the competition?
The order only flipped in the top three, and they had been razor close in prelims. (821, 820, 818 points)
Not a fan of these judges at all. I see this competition, or at least it's judges, swiftly loosing credibility.
Dominick, I think you’re being harsh on the judging panel as a whole when we aren't sure they had any control over this - I’m not familiar with Porter, but the other three are veteran directors. Plus, we don’t know how each judge scored Twinsburg. So I wouldn’t say these judges, whom are frequent judges in the Midwest circuit, are losing credibility.
It appears as though the controversy is coming more so from the Southmont side of things with their rules, the apparent miscommunication, and the resulting disqualification.
Twinsburg in 5th place in prelims? Not a fan of these judges at all. I'm absolutely not saying that the groups ahead of them didn't deserve their placements... its just that a group of such high caliber like Twinsburg who won 3rd at FAME Nationals 2014, and who performed as a host group at SCA in Tiffin a few months ago is certainly not a 5th-place-group. And on top of the disqualification? I see this competition, or at least it's judges, swiftly loosing credibility.
Southmont Show Choir Invitational 2015
