Im guessing they broke the tie with a "majority rule" idea? Three judges had Opelika in first so therefore on a panel of 5 judges, Opelika would win. Just my guess, I dont know that for sure. Its also just a teeny bit suspicious that Wanda Saul (who just happens to be the former director of South Jones) had Opelika in 4th. If you wanna talk "conspiracy theory" that is where you should look IMO. In terms of petal, its hard to say they deserved a finals spot when 3 of the 4 judges had them in 6th place after prelims and the 4th judge had them tied for 5th with Northeast. I think what it shows is that any choir is beatable on any given weekend. Maybe Petal had an off show and maybe northeast had the best one of their season. On any given weekend now across the country SOMEBODY is going to not make finals that usually has in the past, we all know Mt Zion didnt make finals in Iowa, it happens! There are so many good groups these days, its not a given that the dinosaurs of yesterday will still come out on top in todays field. Just my two cents!
And that's definitely the best "two cents" I've ever heard! No show choir is unbeatable. Example: Mt. Zion who beat Clinton Attache, was beat at Show Choir Nationals by Pascagoula! Nobody can say that any of the judges were biased because none of those judges in Nashville "knew" Pascagoula. A lot of people are blaming petal's props for our win, well that just may be true...why? Because their show had a major malfunction that ours lacked, yeah they danced well and yeah they sang well, but lets not forget about the overall affect category that's judged also. Petal was FREAKIN AWESOME, but Northeast beat them out by 13 points...accept it.
Im guessing they broke the tie with a "majority rule" idea? Three judges had Opelika in first so therefore on a panel of 5 judges, Opelika would win. Just my guess, I dont know that for sure. Its also just a teeny bit suspicious that Wanda Saul (who just happens to be the former director of South Jones) had Opelika in 4th. If you wanna talk "conspiracy theory" that is where you should look IMO. In terms of petal, its hard to say they deserved a finals spot when 3 of the 4 judges had them in 6th place after prelims and the 4th judge had them tied for 5th with Northeast. I think what it shows is that any choir is beatable on any given weekend. Maybe Petal had an off show and maybe northeast had the best one of their season. On any given weekend now across the country SOMEBODY is going to not make finals that usually has in the past, we all know Mt Zion didnt make finals in Iowa, it happens! There are so many good groups these days, its not a given that the dinosaurs of yesterday will still come out on top in todays field. Just my two cents!
Personally, I always wanted to know how my choir and I scored, and how those scores stood up against other choirs, even when we didn't win or make Finals. Heartbroken or not...who wouldn't want to know? I certainly wouldn't think that they'd be in the majority.
I personally think that a choir does better if they don't know how many points they made finals by. That way, the choir won't get cocky and think that they will win the competition no matter what kind of show that they do. This has happened to CenterStage! in the past...
I understand the results being given to the individual directors, but perhaps a certain director might not wish to divulge to his heartbroken choir members that they missed making finals by one point, or they were denied grand championship by one point, and a certain judge had scored them uncharacteristically low. That, to me, would make the disappointment for the choir members even greater. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned and don't have a clue, but I think that the scoring results, and whether or not they are shared, should be at the director's discretion. Just my opinion.
Personally, I always wanted to know how my choir and I scored, and how those scores stood up against other choirs, even when we didn't win or make Finals. Heartbroken or not...who wouldn't want to know? I certainly wouldn't think that they'd be in the majority.
I understand the results being given to the individual directors, but perhaps a certain director might not wish to divulge to his heartbroken choir members that they missed making finals by one point, or they were denied grand championship by one point, and a certain judge had scored them uncharacteristically low. That, to me, would make the disappointment for the choir members even greater. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned and don't have a clue, but I think that the scoring results, and whether or not they are shared, should be at the director's discretion. Just my opinion.
I agree with you!
I couldn't disagree with you more. (Obviously because I posted the scores). These scores are given to every director/group so they are public regardless. Anything that is public material can be posted on this forum. If a judge can't handle what they are signing up for, then they shouldn't judge anyways. I don't think most judges mind having their results posted. It's the way that they saw the competition... they have nothing to be ashamed of. It is what it is.
As far as the captions goes. There WAS as caption for choreography... it was called `Best Visual`. It's listed in the posted judge scoring sheets. The results next to each caption shows which choir each judge voted for.
Opelika received `Best Visual` and `Best Band`
South Jones reveived `Best Costumes`, `Best Vocals`, and `Best Overall Effect`
I understand the results being given to the individual directors, but perhaps a certain director might not wish to divulge to his heartbroken choir members that they missed making finals by one point, or they were denied grand championship by one point, and a certain judge had scored them uncharacteristically low. That, to me, would make the disappointment for the choir members even greater. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned and don't have a clue, but I think that the scoring results, and whether or not they are shared, should be at the director's discretion. Just my opinion.
sayin judge Saul didn't influence the outcome may be true in regards to opelika still coming out on top. However I think the question of integrity, unbias, and an "attempt" to sway the competition DOES come into play when you look that she very obviously had opelika buried in 4th place. I sir, smell a rat!
As far as posting each individual judges scores and placements of the choirs on the message board for the entire world to see is, IMO, totally uncalled for. I would imagine that being a judge at one of the comps is difficult and a somewhat "thankless" job. And to be able to read how I judged at a certain competition, would be enough to keep me from wanting to go back to that venue.
I couldn't disagree with you more. (Obviously because I posted the scores). These scores are given to every director/group so they are public regardless. Anything that is public material can be posted on this forum. If a judge can't handle what they are signing up for, then they shouldn't judge anyways. I don't think most judges mind having their results posted. It's the way that they saw the competition... they have nothing to be ashamed of. It is what it is.
As far as the captions goes. There WAS as caption for choreography... it was called `Best Visual`. It's listed in the posted judge scoring sheets. The results next to each caption shows which choir each judge voted for.
Opelika received `Best Visual` and `Best Band`
South Jones reveived `Best Costumes`, `Best Vocals`, and `Best Overall Effect`
West Jones did not do best Choreography. Opelika could not have won it because it was not a caption award.
Based on the post above it list visuals (choreo), so they had it listed on the score sheet as visuals is my guess. I know Cody said Opelika won the best choreo on page 4 and he' not usually wrong.
I'm not sure I follow your idea of a "Goliath" beating a "David". In my opinion, a "David" edged out a "Goliath"!!!!!!!!
Best of luck to all southern Show Choirs for the rest of this year and look forward to 2010!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We only have our show choir Showcase, the demo performances for elementary schools, and West Palm Beach shows left. See you all next year!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe all of this is very true! This past weekend at the WJSCI, a "Goliath" beat a "David." I believe both groups in NEJ and Petal will grow and strengthen from the outcome! Congratulations to everyone and the 2009 WJSCI was the best competition all season! Very fun working in solo competition room with Wanda Saul and hearing all of the amazing soloists of the day!
Hey, folks, let's put this cat outside and not discuss anymore the results from West Jones--because nothing is going to change at this point. Sure, it was a total shocker, but as someone posted earlier, it is, and should be getting to the point where anyone can beat anyone else on a given weekend. If that were not the case and you have the same five show choirs in finals at each competition, why then, wouldn't some of the other choirs choose not to enter the competition since they "don't have a prayer" of winning or of even making finals. I know the love for show choir is what drives many folks to travel long distances to see the Petals, Clintons, Mt. Zions, etc., of the show choir world, but I also think there has to be a semblance of hope when the "Davids" of show choir compete against the "Goliaths". The underdogs do win, on occasion, and the Goliaths do get knocked down. That is one of the things that makes life interesting and fresh!!!!!!!! Everyone wants to believe that they have a chance to win each weekend.
As far as posting each individual judges scores and placements of the choirs on the message board for the entire world to see is, IMO, totally uncalled for. I would imagine that being a judge at one of the comps is difficult and a somewhat "thankless" job. And to be able to read how I judged at a certain competition, would be enough to keep me from wanting to go back to that venue. Second guessing the judges, again, will not change one iota of the results and will only make the pain of not being in finals, or, of not winning, linger longer. Judges are human and are allowed to have their opinions, and the rest of us must live with the fallout.
I was impressed with each of the groups Saturday and wish to congratulate the top finishers of the 2009 WJSCI competition and look forward to see how things shake out in 2010.
Cody I didn't think you were seriously implying there was any kind of conspiracy, but I did want to point out that this group of judges came from all around the U.S. and have little connection to each other before Fridays, as far as I know. I do know Archie Messersmith has judged at Opelika before, was he a judge there this year? If he has in fact been there a lot in the past how does that apply, since Opelika's director has only been there a couple of years? My whole post was based on Petal's being left out finals and Wanda Saul had nothing to do with that, so I don't see why that had to be brought up.
On the whole Wanda Saul placements... solely based on what the other judges saw and other's that attended the competition, I'm surprised that she had Opelika below Enterprise and Pascagoula... as she was the only of 5 judges to have them behind those 2.
But, I don't think there was any conspiracy theory with regards to her South Jones ties. I guess she just saw things differently? It happens at nearly every competition... that one judge just saw the competition completely differently. It's the reason you have 5 judges... so that you can get an average consensus to award the winner. If every judge saw it the same then there'd only be a need for 1 judge. ;)
Im guessing they broke the tie with a "majority rule" idea? Three judges had Opelika in first so therefore on a panel of 5 judges, Opelika would win. Just my guess, I dont know that for sure. Its also just a teeny bit suspicious that Wanda Saul (who just happens to be the former director of South Jones) had Opelika in 4th. If you wanna talk "conspiracy theory" that is where you should look IMO. In terms of petal, its hard to say they deserved a finals spot when 3 of the 4 judges had them in 6th place after prelims and the 4th judge had them tied for 5th with Northeast. I think what it shows is that any choir is beatable on any given weekend. Maybe Petal had an off show and maybe northeast had the best one of their season. On any given weekend now across the country SOMEBODY is going to not make finals that usually has in the past, we all know Mt Zion didnt make finals in Iowa, it happens! There are so many good groups these days, its not a given that the dinosaurs of yesterday will still come out on top in todays field. Just my two cents!.
Were you at the WJ Invite in person, blipper?
That's a very bold, and somewhat ignorant statement my friend. Every judge has ties to someone in show choir, and we all know that. I see no problem those ties being pointed out (such as arrangers and choreographers being on a panel tha judges their own work, and former directors judging their former schools); the problems come when you do it less than tastefully. Clearly Saul made no impact on the final standings, as the top two finished in the same order as they did in prelims where she wasn't a judge.
I see this to be no more relevant than I do the fact that Messersmith is a judge every year for Opelika's competition and had them much farther ahead of South Jones than did any other judge in prelims. I'm sure he had no more of an agenda than did Saul.
There is certainly much more to all of this, but I personally suggest that it be left off the message boards. I have never had a problem with constructive criticism, but let's please try to keep it all as clean as possible (self-included).
I'm a little confused. Whenever you add up SJ and Opelika's rankings.... You come up with: SJ: 1.8 Opelika: 1.8... How did they come up with a clear decision?
I would assume that Opelika's 3 first-place votes to South Jones's 2 first-place votes was the deciding factor.
I do not agree with that. Things like that shouldn't affect result, in my opinion. She covered like a true professional. I was proud of her and I admire her because of how she handled herself despite her dress. Honestly, I never knew something was wrong until she left the stage during the dance break which I knew she normally danced. I give high props to her.
Im guessing they broke the tie with a "majority rule" idea? Three judges had Opelika in first so therefore on a panel of 5 judges, Opelika would win. Just my guess, I dont know that for sure. Its also just a teeny bit suspicious that Wanda Saul (who just happens to be the former director of South Jones) had Opelika in 4th. If you wanna talk "conspiracy theory" that is where you should look IMO. In terms of petal, its hard to say they deserved a finals spot when 3 of the 4 judges had them in 6th place after prelims and the 4th judge had them tied for 5th with Northeast. I think what it shows is that any choir is beatable on any given weekend. Maybe Petal had an off show and maybe northeast had the best one of their season. On any given weekend now across the country SOMEBODY is going to not make finals that usually has in the past, we all know Mt Zion didnt make finals in Iowa, it happens! There are so many good groups these days, its not a given that the dinosaurs of yesterday will still come out on top in todays field. Just my two cents!
West Jones Invitational 2009
