obviously i understand the amount of work that Show Choir takes...
Unfortunately... no matter how much you work on it, NO high school can perform Opera without butchering it. North Central's miserable attempt at "Oh Fortuna" from Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana" illustrates my point quite well i think. They sang it as well as 50 high school students could have, and it was a mess.
I think it's pretty "BS" of you to diss opera. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's less relevant than Show Choir...
Yes i like show choir. Yes i like opera
Opera takes more talent and training.
Don't discount a judge because she's an "Opera Singer"
The vocal judges scored very differently from each other. Some scored groups very well and the others scored the same group very low. I think every group had their own vocal issues whether it was a bad blend, screamy, not loud enough, bad vibrato sticking out, etc.
Can we stop fighting? We all love to watch show choir and discuss it and I think everyone knows that show choir is definitely not just an activity. It does require hours and hours of practice. Show choir is a great for any vocal or dance related activity or business or anything.
"because the screamy singing operas singers do is NOT at all the same as show choir"
Really?
That's because it's a REAL medium for vocalists. , so that you can continue to a REAL art form after you graduate.
Opera is one of the FEW styles that we vocalists have to choose from, If you're discounting a judge's knowledge of Vocal Technique because she is an "Opera Singer" then you really have NO business posting on here whatsoever
discounting it based off of what you and others have said about ppl sing loud or screaming. ipersonall don't care for opera singing but they are amazing however my point was that she had never seen or heard of show choir before so her judging was based on whats good for sc. and some may argue thats a good thing because she can strictly talk about vocal technique.
but as others have said in a nother forum bd was screamy an FC had issuses but were both in finals. one judge can't make too much of a difference but can make some kind of difference.
show choir is NOT just an activity. many groups spend COUNTLESS hours practicing vocal technique, dance techique and everything else that goes along with it. and for you to sit here and discount all the hardworking and musically talented students out there by saying (pretty much) that show choir is just an activity to keepUnlike show choir which is supposed to be an activity to keep "you interested in vocal music in high school" it TOATAL BULL****!!!
SHOW CHOIR IS A SMALL STEP TOWARDS MUSICAL THEATER SUCH AS BRODWAY TYPE THINGS. YOU CANNOT HONEST SIT HERE AND TELL ME THAT ITS JUST AN ACTIVITY. MANY GREAT VOCALISTS AND SINGERS DID SHOW CHOIR AND YES IT KEPT THEM INTERESTED IN SINGING BUT I HIGHLY DOUBT IT WAS JUST SOMETHING THEY DID.
that middle thing bout the opera judge was not in my original state men lol but that is horrible because the screamy singing operas singers do is NOT at all the same as show choir but it may help explain why the louder groups vocally may have made it to finals but thats only one judge
how many are there at state 5? 2 visuals 2 vocal an then the bad judge?
"because the screamy singing operas singers do is NOT at all the same as show choir"
Really?
That's because it's a REAL medium for vocalists. Unlike show choir which is supposed to be an activity to keep you interested in vocal music in high school, so that you can continue to a REAL art form after you graduate.
Opera is one of the FEW styles that we vocalists have to choose from, If you're discounting a judge's knowledge of Vocal Technique because she is an "Opera Singer" then you really have NO business posting on here whatsoever
you thought carmels choreography was more difficult? did you even see the choreography in ben davis' closer? just curious. don't get me wrong, carmel was definitely fantastic and better than i've ever seen them but i think ben davis deserved their spot in finals. i've seen them alot and they've been working really hard and have improved so much from past years.
If the show Carmel put on at State this year was the "Best you've ever seen them" then i'm sorry, but i think i "got you wrong'...
Carmel's shows in 2007 and 2008 blew everyone in indiana straight out of the water...
The difference between Ben Davis' choreo and Carmel's choreo is, Carmel's choreography is actually choreography...
Carmel should have been in finals, and BD should stop singing so loud, they're going to hurt themselves...
i honestly think seeing the way things went that if pike had not have gone first they would have beat BD out for that spot in finals (because they had beat them 2 times previously.)
carmel beat BD twice also. and if you go by that logic, carmel also beat pike at huntington north, so they would be in over pike regardless of when they performed
Yes, someone please do. I am a little biased because I prefer a show like FC or Carmel. I have kept close tabs on Carmel because they are my favorite group, but I do have to say that I think FC was better at state this year.
I would have had:
GC: NC
1RU: FC
2RU: Carmel
3RU: Pike
4RU: LC
5RU: BD
6RU: HN
7RU: WC
8RU: Castle
9RU: Northrop
~~~~
I didn't mean to offend these schools by leaving them off. I just put the top 8 which were the main schools talked about in this thread.
I admitted I was biased towards the theater style show so that is why FC and Carmel are higher than how some people would have put them. I also put WC at 7RU because they did have all of their people and their vocals were not as strong but their show was still amazing. I put BD lower because their vocals were very good but I though Pike and LC had a better overall performance. LC's opener was awesome.
I know you asked for an unbiased placement list, but everyone has to be biased towards a particular show style or a particular group. I admitted I am.
those ranking are exactly what i had after state. except that i was honestly a toss up between FC and NC for GC. they both put on spectacular performances during the day. i'm still upset that pike went first. because i honestly think seeing the way things went that if pike had not have gone first they would have beat BD out for that spot in finals (because they had beat them 2 times previously.) but even before finals were announced i had FC Carmel and NC going, not even pike. but after hearing BD made it, i was a little upset about that unfriendly fate of going first lol.
can someone put up what the placings "should have" been based on actual performances and NOT biased opinions?
I agree with everything Mr. HJA is saying! However, aren't anyone's placings going to have biased opinions?
That's the beauty and curse of show choir: it's almost impossible to name who is better and who is worse. It's a performance and a form of entertainment, not a race whose winner is clearly defined. Sure, there are sometimes obvious distinctions. But each group has its own style and its strengths and weaknesses.
Yes, someone please do. I am a little biased because I prefer a show like FC or Carmel. I have kept close tabs on Carmel because they are my favorite group, but I do have to say that I think FC was better at state this year.
I would have had:
GC: NC
1RU: FC
2RU: Carmel
3RU: Pike
4RU: LC
5RU: BD
6RU: HN
7RU: WC
you are forgetting other schools as well check your placements
can someone put up what the placings "should have" been based on actual performances and NOT biased opinions? i know personally i have only seen ben davis, pike, LC, and FC on youtube so i know i would have them in the top 5 definately LC. BD, and Pike have AMAZING openers all though im not big on to much armography they were vocally STUNNING.
Yes, someone please do. I am a little biased because I prefer a show like FC or Carmel. I have kept close tabs on Carmel because they are my favorite group, but I do have to say that I think FC was better at state this year.
I would have had:
GC: NC
1RU: FC
2RU: Carmel
3RU: Pike
4RU: LC
5RU: BD
6RU: HN
7RU: WC
8RU: Castle
9RU: Northrop
~~~~
I didn't mean to offend these schools by leaving them off. I just put the top 8 which were the main schools talked about in this thread.
I admitted I was biased towards the theater style show so that is why FC and Carmel are higher than how some people would have put them. I also put WC at 7RU because they did have all of their people and their vocals were not as strong but their show was still amazing. I put BD lower because their vocals were very good but I though Pike and LC had a better overall performance. LC's opener was awesome.
I know you asked for an unbiased placement list, but everyone has to be biased towards a particular show style or a particular group. I admitted I am.
I think state is going down hill every year!
i concur with you on that. I really do. Not to take away any of the championships or the placements of groups. Its not the choirs, i actually think despite the horrific judging that seems to occur at stae, ALL choirs in indiana have and are stepping up and bringing something different to show choir and thus making indiana show choir one of the BEST places for show choir PERIOD. (as some have agreed in another thread)
we(choir members or alumni) can go to a competition and watch groups perform and know in our heart and minds who should win and when those things don't happen it's kind of weird. I know i was at one compwhere i knew my choir didnn't perform well enough to win or make finals but we did, beating groups i felt were better then us at that particular contest. i know im not the only one who feels this
way
can someone put up what the placings "should have" been based on actual performances and NOT biased opinions? i know personally i have only seen ben davis, pike, LC, and FC on youtube so i know i would have them in the top 5 definately LC. BD, and Pike have AMAZING openers all though im not big on to much armography they were vocally STUNNING.
First off, I'd like to congratulate every participating choir for their spectacular performances on Saturday. It was a wildly entertaining day and I'm sure the audience enjoyed each and every performance. However, I do walk away from the situation with a bit of hesitation.
Much of the point of competing is to not only entertain the audience and impress the judges, but also to learn and grow as a group of high school students. As some previously posted,
"The purpose of competition is not fairness, it is excellence. All competition is inherently unfair, and there is nothing wrong with that. It provides the incentive to improve."
Now, in order for each choir to attend ISSMA, that choir must qualify at a qualification site. Each set of judges gives recommendations to the best of their ability in order to help the group improve and succeed in the future. For some of the ISSMA adjudicators, their scores and comments agreed with the general consensus among other adjudicators from across the Midwest in previous sites. If at two ISSMA qualification competitions, judges comment on "singing more softly throughout the ballad," "certainly opening up the vowels," and "stopping the belting and initiating a more rich tone," one would think that by doing so, it would help contribute to a higher score at ISSMA. And yes, that appeared to be the case for some of the judges at ISSMA.
However, by the apparent point spread between judges (i.e. Carmel's first place by two judges and in the bottom three by the other two), it can be inferred that there was no commonality of opinion between the judges.
Had this been any other competition but the ISSMA state show choir competition, fine, so be it. But one should think that in a competition of such importance, whose judges at the qualification sites all share a same musical appreciation and make similar comments to improve scores in the future, the same type of judging should occur. Apparently, ISSMA did not agree this year.
I don't think the people chosen to judge ISSMA were qualified enough to do so. I heard he judging was very bad with little to no explanation to placement and scoring like you said. That is unacceptable especially for a state competition.
First off, I'd like to congratulate every participating choir for their spectacular performances on Saturday. It was a wildly entertaining day and I'm sure the audience enjoyed each and every performance. However, I do walk away from the situation with a bit of hesitation.
Much of the point of competing is to not only entertain the audience and impress the judges, but also to learn and grow as a group of high school students. As some previously posted,
"The purpose of competition is not fairness, it is excellence. All competition is inherently unfair, and there is nothing wrong with that. It provides the incentive to improve."
Now, in order for each choir to attend ISSMA, that choir must qualify at a qualification site. Each set of judges gives recommendations to the best of their ability in order to help the group improve and succeed in the future. For some of the ISSMA adjudicators, their scores and comments agreed with the general consensus among other adjudicators from across the Midwest in previous sites. If at two ISSMA qualification competitions, judges comment on "singing more softly throughout the ballad," "certainly opening up the vowels," and "stopping the belting and initiating a more rich tone," one would think that by doing so, it would help contribute to a higher score at ISSMA. And yes, that appeared to be the case for some of the judges at ISSMA.
However, by the apparent point spread between judges (i.e. Carmel's first place by two judges and in the bottom three by the other two), it can be inferred that there was no commonality of opinion between the judges.
Had this been any other competition but the ISSMA state show choir competition, fine, so be it. But one should think that in a competition of such importance, whose judges at the qualification sites all share a same musical appreciation and make similar comments to improve scores in the future, the same type of judging should occur. Apparently, ISSMA did not agree this year.
that middle thing bout the opera judge was not in my original state men lol but that is horrible because the screamy singing operas singers do is NOT at all the same as show choir but it may help explain why the louder groups vocally may have made it to finals but thats only one judge
how many are there at state 5? 2 visuals 2 vocal an then the bad judge?
I heard Carmel got disqualified because one of their people stepped over the mic. line and the judges saw it. Too bad for them becuase I love their show and they bumped us down a place.
They had the mics on stage and they kicked over a boom mic that was right on the stage floor. There were a lot of mics.
I don't think thats what was meant by the comment of scaling down
I disagree about competition bein inherantly unfair. As an athlete, i know that each game, track meet, or comp can be different and sometimes the people who should based of of talent and prior success fails. Competitons would not be competitions if there was not a fair way to compete. If you compare show choir with other judged sports ie gymnastics or figure skating you notice there is certain criteria that is required but it lets the skater or gymnast figure out what moves to perform to get the good score. In bball there the fact that there are only 5 ppl on each team on the floor at one time and depending on where you shoot the ball its either 3 or 2 points. things like this make competition FAIR. show choir doesn't really have parameters and thus it really isn't fair. Many judgin sports have problems being objective an i feel that show choir is one that has that issue.
One of the judges was an opera expert and she had never judged a show choir before letalone SEE one perform. That is what disgusted me the most, but oh well.
i have seen small choirs ie highland with great vocals an great visuals lose to groups of 50+ when the maybe shouldn't have. it is hard to regulate how many students can be or should be in a choir and i DON"T think it should be regulated. Maybe on a judges sheet there can be a box that has to do with sound produced based on the choir not necessarily the amount of people in the choir if that makes sense. Judges should be able to discern the diff between 50 ppl being loud because its 50 ppl or not.
Indiana State Small School Finals 2009
