Ben Davis was loud... but not impressive... Carmel had many more "musical moments" and their choreo was a bit cleaner than BD's in my opinion (definitely more difficult)
I heard Carmel got disqualified because one of their people stepped over the mic. line and the judges saw it. Too bad for them becuase I love their show and they bumped us down a place.
How far of a point spread were plainfeild from dekalb?
I was at class A all day, but I heard that after the day show Dekalb was up by close to 30 points... my guess is that it did not change too much at night.
The purpose of competition is not fairness, it is excellence. All competition is inherently unfair, and there is nothing wrong with that. It provides the incentive to improve. If a school of 3000 can only field 26 people while a school of 350 can field 40, why they have to cut back to 26?
I don't think thats what was meant by the comment of scaling down
I disagree about competition bein inherantly unfair. As an athlete, i know that each game, track meet, or comp can be different and sometimes the people who should based of of talent and prior success fails. Competitons would not be competitions if there was not a fair way to compete. If you compare show choir with other judged sports ie gymnastics or figure skating you notice there is certain criteria that is required but it lets the skater or gymnast figure out what moves to perform to get the good score. In bball there the fact that there are only 5 ppl on each team on the floor at one time and depending on where you shoot the ball its either 3 or 2 points. things like this make competition FAIR. show choir doesn't really have parameters and thus it really isn't fair. Many judgin sports have problems being objective an i feel that show choir is one that has that issue.
i have seen small choirs ie highland with great vocals an great visuals lose to groups of 50+ when the maybe shouldn't have. it is hard to regulate how many students can be or should be in a choir and i DON"T think it should be regulated. Maybe on a judges sheet there can be a box that has to do with sound produced based on the choir not necessarily the amount of people in the choir if that makes sense. Judges should be able to discern the diff between 50 ppl being loud because its 50 ppl or not.
There is only one choir of 40 or more in indiana that i would consider "Shouty", and that would be Dekalb... who already got their advantage by getting to perform in "small mixed"...
I'd have to say that "smaller" choirs (more often than not) have more to work on than just getting their numbers up. I can't think of one show from this year, from a group of under 40, that would have competed content wise with choirs like Franklin Central, North Central, Carmel, or Center Grove.
It's not REALLY size that counts... it's what you do with it. Choirs with under 40 members are struggling because either their designers don't understand what to do with a smaller group, or because their director is not doing enough within the school to get numbers. Either way it doesn't really have much to do with the students...
Choreographically, a smaller choir is WAY better... Gives you a much less crowded stage, which in turns means you can use more intricate stage movement (something i felt Pike could have taken advantage of and didn't.)
Vocally, it DOES mean less sound, that (as much as it would be a nice excuse) does not mean less effective vocals... The problem is that most smaller choirs tend to be monotone the entire show because they're worried about being heard and are just trying to keep up with the larger choirs. Dynamics are still very important in a small choir... you can't just sing at fortissimo all show long with decent tone and expect to get a vocal caption.
ppp to f = very nice
p to f = boring
f = fff = annoying
First, I wasn't bashing any choirs for being shouty... I was just making a general comment to how I feel judging should be. I only said shouty because I remember being shouty in choir trying to be louder and it ruined my voice =).
I just think that smaller choirs under 40 should be judged differently than choirs over 40 because they are so different. I know some people were upset about Dekalb having so many people and getting a win over smaller choirs. It they are so different, they should be judged more fairly.
I don't think it is the director's sole responsibility to get kids to join choir. It helps, but ultimately it is the kid's decision. I think the director has more of a say on how well the choir will compete based on if they compact talent in a smaller group or spread out talent in a larger group. I just think it would be better if ISSMA decided divisions based on choir size so the directors have the ability to decide what choir size is best for the talent that is provided to them and create a choir that will compete well.
I agree with choreography. Vocals will not be as strong and this is a disadvantage because vocals are worth 60% and choreo is only worth 40%.
I felt that specifically through this competition, the choirs that got rewarded are the choirs with the powerhouse, loud vocals. I feel that some choirs had amazing dynamics and musical excellence that got looked over because other groups had louder vocals.
If vocals were solely judged on musicality and not pure volume, then this would be a completely different story. That is just my opinion.
When you have 10 outstanding choirs competing against each other, SOMEONE is going to be be #10, #9, #4, etc. (Actually, when you're dealing with hundreds of possible points, I almost wish there was a rule that said unless there is at least a, what, full point? 3 point? 5 point? differential, it's called a tie. None of this hundredths of a point crap. A judge sneezes at the wrong time, misses a chord out of tune, and gives that choir a 9 instead of an 8. Another is writing on his score sheet and misses some terrific choreography, giving that choir a 7.5 instead of a more accurate 8.) So remember that it's not like 1 through 3 = good, 4 through 10 = bad. It's a testament to the calibre of Indiana groups that so many outstanding programs were not finalists -- not to mention all the good Hoosier choirs that don't even participate.
I never said cut backs were needed. I said schools do cut down to a smaller number. If some schools kept all talent in their top choirs they would have over a hundred people.
All I meant was that it would be easier to judge choirs through divisions where the choirs are roughly the same size. It is hard to compare a choir of 26 to a choir of 52. It will never be that way, but it would be cool to see how choirs of the same size compare to each other and not just compare to choirs that are different to them in numbers by a lot.
Overall, I think judges should consider the number of people in each choir when judging. Volume is more excellent by healthy(not shouting) projection vs. the number of people singing.
There is only one choir of 40 or more in indiana that i would consider "Shouty", and that would be Dekalb... who already got their advantage by getting to perform in "small mixed"...
I'd have to say that "smaller" choirs (more often than not) have more to work on than just getting their numbers up. I can't think of one show from this year, from a group of under 40, that would have competed content wise with choirs like Franklin Central, North Central, Carmel, or Center Grove.
It's not REALLY size that counts... it's what you do with it. Choirs with under 40 members are struggling because either their designers don't understand what to do with a smaller group, or because their director is not doing enough within the school to get numbers. Either way it doesn't really have much to do with the students...
Choreographically, a smaller choir is WAY better... Gives you a much less crowded stage, which in turns means you can use more intricate stage movement (something i felt Pike could have taken advantage of and didn't.)
Vocally, it DOES mean less sound, that (as much as it would be a nice excuse) does not mean less effective vocals... The problem is that most smaller choirs tend to be monotone the entire show because they're worried about being heard and are just trying to keep up with the larger choirs. Dynamics are still very important in a small choir... you can't just sing at fortissimo all show long with decent tone and expect to get a vocal caption.
The purpose of competition is not fairness, it is excellence. All competition is inherently unfair, and there is nothing wrong with that. It provides the incentive to improve. If a school of 3000 can only field 26 people while a school of 350 can field 40, why they have to cut back to 26?
First of all, loudness is not excellence.
I never said cut backs were needed. I said schools do cut down to a smaller number. If some schools kept all talent in their top choirs they would have over a hundred people.
All I meant was that it would be easier to judge choirs through divisions where the choirs are roughly the same size. It is hard to compare a choir of 26 to a choir of 52. It will never be that way, but it would be cool to see how choirs of the same size compare to each other and not just compare to choirs that are different to them in numbers by a lot.
Overall, I think judges should consider the number of people in each choir when judging. Volume is more excellent by healthy(not shouting) projection vs. the number of people singing.
But what if their were different divisions choirs could compete in based on the number of people they have?
Anderson Highland Singers have like 26 people
A lot of choirs have 36 or so people.
Carmel Ambassadors have 42 people
NC Counterpoints have 52 people
I don't think it should be based on school size. I know a lot of these schools struggle to find enough people and some schools could have 60 people, but they scale down.
Maybe if their were different divisions for how many people you have so the judges dont have to judge whether it is the number of people producing the sound or the people projecting the sound themselves. I think it is hard to compare a groups level of volume to another group that has a huge difference in the number of people. The smaller groups are at a disadvantage to the larger groups.
Not only that... of course a choir can produce a HUGE sound when they are just standing there and singing with zero movement, especially when they have not even danced yet in the show.
I don't think the judges really took everything into account, and I don't blame them(actually I do =) )... its hard to keep all of these things in mind in order to judge fair. It just would be easier if the sizes of the choirs were the same or roughly the same. A 10 or more person difference in the same division is huge. I don't know, but that is just my opinion.
Larger groups did split guys and girls which is around 20-30 people on at a time. But I know what you mean though with 20-30 mixed on stage at a time.
The purpose of competition is not fairness, it is excellence. All competition is inherently unfair, and there is nothing wrong with that. It provides the incentive to improve. If a school of 3000 can only field 26 people while a school of 350 can field 40, why they have to cut back to 26?
If there was a set number of performers you were required to use on stage. Every year choirs would be unable to compete because as we all know. Some programs struggle to keep numbers up.
NC has been 50 persons for a long time. 2002 atleast right?
One thing that i would find very interesting, would be for a group that does have 50 or 60 people to split the group for half of the show. 26 members on stage can make for some really great choreo... especially couples stuff. Do your costume change, win the choreo judge over, then pull the whole group on stage for a ballad like NC sang on Saturday.
The problem is that you need a large amount of sound for general effect. Ben Davis wouldn't have been ANYWHERE last weekend had it not been for their "I WANNA KNOW" in "strangers like me". I still don't think that the sheer volume of the choir made that a great opener, but apparently the judges did...
Edit: LOL SCRS... Everything changed in the top 20 except for number 20 haha. Woot FC! Way to hold that number 20 spot
But what if their were different divisions choirs could compete in based on the number of people they have?
Anderson Highland Singers have like 26 people
A lot of choirs have 36 or so people.
Carmel Ambassadors have 42 people
NC Counterpoints have 52 people
I don't think it should be based on school size. I know a lot of these schools struggle to find enough people and some schools could have 60 people, but they scale down.
Maybe if their were different divisions for how many people you have so the judges dont have to judge whether it is the number of people producing the sound or the people projecting the sound themselves. I think it is hard to compare a groups level of volume to another group that has a huge difference in the number of people. The smaller groups are at a disadvantage to the larger groups.
Not only that... of course a choir can produce a HUGE sound when they are just standing there and singing with zero movement, especially when they have not even danced yet in the show.
I don't think the judges really took everything into account, and I don't blame them(actually I do =) )... its hard to keep all of these things in mind in order to judge fair. It just would be easier if the sizes of the choirs were the same or roughly the same. A 10 or more person difference in the same division is huge. I don't know, but that is just my opinion.
Larger groups did split guys and girls which is around 20-30 people on at a time. But I know what you mean though with 20-30 mixed on stage at a time.
Rankings did change according to the scrsystem.net list.
As for this competition, the only thing I am going to say is if the judges were judging vocals based on how loud they were, maybe every choir should have the same number of people. Then that would be the true test of vocal "skill". That maybe would also eliminate the problem of weird class divisions? I don't know. I just think competition would be better if that one huge variable became a constant.
If there was a set number of performers you were required to use on stage. Every year choirs would be unable to compete because as we all know. Some programs struggle to keep numbers up.
NC has been 50 persons for a long time. 2002 atleast right?
One thing that i would find very interesting, would be for a group that does have 50 or 60 people to split the group for half of the show. 26 members on stage can make for some really great choreo... especially couples stuff. Do your costume change, win the choreo judge over, then pull the whole group on stage for a ballad like NC sang on Saturday.
The problem is that you need a large amount of sound for general effect. Ben Davis wouldn't have been ANYWHERE last weekend had it not been for their "I WANNA KNOW" in "strangers like me". I still don't think that the sheer volume of the choir made that a great opener, but apparently the judges did...
Edit: LOL SCRS... Everything changed in the top 20 except for number 20 haha. Woot FC! Way to hold that number 20 spot
Rankings did change according to the scrsystem.net list.
As for this competition, the only thing I am going to say is if the judges were judging vocals based on how loud they were, maybe every choir should have the same number of people. Then that would be the true test of vocal "skill". That maybe would also eliminate the problem of weird class divisions? I don't know. I just think competition would be better if that one huge variable became a constant.
i just wanted to say that this was the first year since carmel has competed back in the 70s that they didn't make finals...so obviously something is off....but congrats to everyone
im in the girls show!!! how do i not support them?? i love our girls group and am completely proud that they won... i dont know how you know me or know any of my opinions about this topic... so please dont spread unnecessary rumors on to this topic... thanks
I would never spread rumors unnecessarily......I know several of the girls in the women's group very well, and well, let's start with the madrigal performance? That one wasn't very supportive.....if you've made a change then I think you're totally awesome and I completely take back what I said, but being a part of the women's show doesn't automatically make you supportive -- it just makes you part of the show -- what you say and do behind the scenes is where the proof lies.
Back to a happier part of this stream where we were all in love with each other....
Darn right BSCards5! It's great to hear you say that bout us. Let me return the favor -- in the past, FC has had the reputation for not supporting your girls group -- don't know why, but I could guess....yesterday, during the finals, even though you all knew you'd have to pull out your own HUGE performance, you were right there cheering and hollering with the rest of us. While there are still some of your members that look down their noses at the women (etphonehome....), the rest of the community has seen a big change. Keep it up!!!
Given that you've got one brand new director, and one director new to his position, the fact that you had a winning season in Indiana would have been amazing, but to dominate the way you did was, well AMAZING.
im in the girls show!!! how do i not support them?? i love our girls group and am completely proud that they won... i dont know how you know me or know any of my opinions about this topic... so please dont spread unnecessary rumors on to this topic... thanks
Back to a happier part of this stream where we were all in love with each other....
Darn right BSCards5! It's great to hear you say that bout us. Let me return the favor -- in the past, FC has had the reputation for not supporting your girls group -- don't know why, but I could guess....yesterday, during the finals, even though you all knew you'd have to pull out your own HUGE performance, you were right there cheering and hollering with the rest of us. While there are still some of your members that look down their noses at the women (etphonehome....), the rest of the community has seen a big change. Keep it up!!!
Given that you've got one brand new director, and one director new to his position, the fact that you had a winning season in Indiana would have been amazing, but to dominate the way you did was, well AMAZING.
High Voltage recieved the flowers you sent us yesterday!!
They're beautiful!! We all cried, it is just great that at the end of the day, we are all professionals, and it's about the "love of the game". Tell all the girls and your director THANK YOU!
Back to a happier part of this stream where we were all in love with each other....
Darn right BSCards5! It's great to hear you say that bout us. Let me return the favor -- in the past, FC has had the reputation for not supporting your girls group -- don't know why, but I could guess....yesterday, during the finals, even though you all knew you'd have to pull out your own HUGE performance, you were right there cheering and hollering with the rest of us. While there are still some of your members that look down their noses at the women (etphonehome....), the rest of the community has seen a big change. Keep it up!!!
Given that you've got one brand new director, and one director new to his position, the fact that you had a winning season in Indiana would have been amazing, but to dominate the way you did was, well AMAZING.
Indiana State Small School Finals 2009
