be as mad as you want.
its not going to change...again
:>
FAME NYC shall be amazing!
and none of the choirs at ISSMA State did their bow w/ 2 or 3 minutes left.
who said it was bad to be different?
NC doesn't do anything like anyone else. They are unique and that is what makes Counterpoints stand out, year after year. Next year, I guarantee at least one other Indiana show choir and two more from around the country will be doing their bow 2 minutes before the end of their show :>
...because of COURSE no one in the Carmel Accents or Ambassadors is ever tired. they don't get tired because they're perfect!
..sarcasm.
I think that Carmel has had an awesome season, sure, everyone has their downfalls and it's crummy that Carmel's was at State. (a competition they weren't even GOING to go to until the last minute due to a large request from the choir) I'm not going to blame their lack of cleanliness due to their performances this past week. Why? (and I mean this in the most polite way possible and I don't want to make my choir seem high and mighty.) Because Castle, the Knight Sensations, had 10+ performances of their set all in 2 days this week before state (and other rehearsals in and out of classtime). The Performances that the Ambassadors had should've cleaned their show even more and if they were out of energy, they should've slept more before they got there since they performed second to last. I am a huge fan of the Ambassadors, and it was shocking when their names weren't called under the finalist category, but I still think their season was superb. end.
To add, I have friends in Carmel, they were all very tired because they had their showcase "Evening with the Ambassadors" on Thursday and Friday and didnt get one day of rest since sunday of last week... they didnt make it because they were week but again I love them and they are amazing!
Okay, so I was at State from the first prelim mixed group and on. I have two points to touch on.
1) I think you should have to compete at State with the show you qualified with. I honestly can't believe there isn't some sort of constraint like this in place already. North Central qualified with their show that contained "Closer", not "The Devil You Know". With this slight bend in the rules, what is to stop a group from competing at normal competitions with a certain show, then using a completely new show at State. A group could just throw in a bunch of songs from their musical, since those numbers would have already been highly rehearsed and perfected.
why would you be opposed to a choir that decided to take a risk such as changing a song in a show in 2 weeks? there is nothing that would stop a group from competing with a certain show but changing it at the last minute...BUT WHY WOULD SOMEONE DO THAT?!
...unless they HAD to.
"Closer" was bringing us down. If I do remember correctly, you were the one saying that it was too raunchy on the BD topic. We were going flat or sharp every which way of the song so we made the decision to change it. What's so wrong with that?
we changed it.
it worked.
sorry that we made a change that all the while seemed necessary.
v
Sorry, but the only change NC made was using an exact replica of an already overused number. Well that, simplifying the choreo in the opener, and changing the order. Oh, btw, Most of the choirs at NYC aren't going to be doing a BOW 2 or 3 minutes prior to the end of their show... You might want to work on that.
Okay, so I was at State from the first prelim mixed group and on. I have two points to touch on.
1) I think you should have to compete at State with the show you qualified with. I honestly can't believe there isn't some sort of constraint like this in place already. North Central qualified with their show that contained "Closer", not "The Devil You Know". With this slight bend in the rules, what is to stop a group from competing at normal competitions with a certain show, then using a completely new show at State. A group could just throw in a bunch of songs from their musical, since those numbers would have already been highly rehearsed and perfected.
why would you be opposed to a choir that decided to take a risk such as changing a song in a show in 2 weeks? there is nothing that would stop a group from competing with a certain show but changing it at the last minute...BUT WHY WOULD SOMEONE DO THAT?!
...unless they HAD to.
"Closer" was bringing us down. If I do remember correctly, you were the one saying that it was too raunchy on the BD topic. We were going flat or sharp every which way of the song so we made the decision to change it. What's so wrong with that?
we changed it.
it worked.
sorry that we made a change that all the while seemed necessary.
Also keep in mind that even though Pike is eligible for state, Pike has only decided to go to state once...and that was the first year for state. So it is very possible that Pike may not choose to go to state once again this year. I personally hope that they attend...but...we will see.
GC: NC (im gonna say that NC can take this back)
1RU: Carmel
2RU: Huntington North
3RU: Warren
4RU: LC
5RU: FC
if pike competes, i believe that can break into that top six.
Hehe, just a LITTLE off weren't we lol I Basically said the same thing back then.
I agree. I was disappointed. I feel that they would have done a whole lot better if they made finals.
I am upset that the first 4 groups were all within around 2 points and Carmel missed finals by .2 points. I just disagree with the judging that happened at ISSMA.
I heard from Carmel kids there that they had been rehearsing pretty much all after their school day until 10 for the entire week and had two huge shows on thurs and friday and didnt get off until 10 too. So whoever said they had a group with a more intense schedule is mistaken. And whoever said they should have gotten more sleep is mistaken too because they could not have if their show ended late the night before.
With this said, I think it was a bad decision to go to state with such an intense schedule the week of state. They were bound to not do well with fatigue and that is a lot on high school kids to undertake with a full school schedule.
They were exhausted. It showed. Their vocals lacked and their choreo lacked sharpness and energy.
The more clean and stronger vocals made it to finals and won the competition.
The few Ambassadors that I talked to were very classy about their place. They held a good attitude and cheered on the women's groups. I saw them having fun with the CPs too before the Descants show.
Overall, everyone had a good attitude throughout this competition. The only complaints I have were the judging and unprofessionalism during the finals announcement.
Yeah, i really thought that (though i was bored with the show) the visual aspects of the show (had they been "Carmel clean" last night) would have absolutely murdered NC's choreo scores, especially considering Terrien was judging. Their traditional style is his cup of tea. The vocals were just weak. They were in tune, balanced, and they had a good sound... but hearing FC, BD, and NC right before with their very very large sound and in your face show concepts, made the show seem REALLY weak... If they had performed it at the level they had at Pike, i'm sure they'd have been a contender for GC if not a caption sweeping victor.
I went to this competition rooting for FC and Carmel more than anyone else. I was hoping FC would win it, but i KNEW Carmel would come out and just blow everyone away... Well, i was disappointed...
I'd assume they were VERY tired, because they didn't look like a "Carmel" group...
The vocals were sloppy in Virtuoso (their closer) it was very loud, but out of balance and you couldn't really hear any of the inner parts. probably a good 40 percent of the show either showcased a Soloist or a small group of some sort on mics... The only time Carmel sang well was during the ballad, and at the end, it started to fall apart.
Carmel did have the show to beat at state, and i think if they'd gotten the shot at finals instead of BD, that they would have rallied themselves, come out and dominated this competition. Just like they did last weekend at Pike. Unfortunately they just didn't have the precision to compete with these other top level groups.
I agree. I was disappointed. I feel that they would have done a whole lot better if they made finals.
I am upset because, like someone said, the first 4 groups were all within around a couple points and Carmel missed finals by less than a point. I just disagree with the judging that happened at ISSMA.
I heard that Carmel had been rehearsing all after school day until late for the entire week and had two huge shows on thurs and friday. Whoever said they should have gotten more sleep is mistaken because if this is true, they could not have if their show ended late the night before.
With this said, I think it was a bad decision to go to state with such an intense schedule the week of state. They were bound to not do well with fatigue and that is a lot on high school kids to undertake with a full school schedule.
They were exhausted. It showed. Their vocals lacked and their choreo lacked sharpness and energy.
The more clean and stronger vocals made it to finals and won the competition.
The Ambassadors seemed okay with their place. They held a good attitude and cheered on the women's groups. I saw them having fun with the CPs too before the Descants show.
Overall, everyone had a good attitude throughout this competition. The only complaints I have were the judging and unprofessionalism during the finals announcement.
Also, I heard that Carmel DID do "We're in the Money" last year simply because they did 42nd street as their musical. But I don't know if that's true or not.
I don't think that using a song from your musical is that big of a deal... but i am a little bit biased...
in 2007, belles et beaux did "slap that bass" because it was in our musical, Crazy For You, that we had done at the beginning of the year...
and, in 2008 as well, we did "book report" from You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown... which was our musical that year
however, i would like to add that, in both cases, we used different vocal arrangements... and completely different choreography...
sorry to digress haha... just thought i'd add my two cents...
Okay, so I was at State from the first prelim mixed group and on. I have two points to touch on.
1) I think you should have to compete at State with the show you qualified with. I honestly can't believe there isn't some sort of constraint like this in place already. North Central qualified with their show that contained "Closer", not "The Devil You Know". With this slight bend in the rules, what is to stop a group from competing at normal competitions with a certain show, then using a completely new show at State. A group could just throw in a bunch of songs from their musical, since those numbers would have already been highly rehearsed and perfected.
I'm pretty sure there is not a rule to prevent this at all, especially considering that a few years ago, LC's girls' group had to change their closer in the week before state due to copyright infringement (idk what really happened, I just know they didn't have the rights to use "When Doves Cry" ) .
It would make sense that the show you qualify with is the one you have to perform at state, but it's would also be incredibly risky and silly to try to come up with a completely new show for state because it wouldn't be nearly as well rehearsed.
Also, I heard that Carmel DID do "We're in the Money" last year simply because they did 42nd street as their musical. But I don't know if that's true or not.
Okay, so I was at State from the first prelim mixed group and on. I have two points to touch on.
1) I think you should have to compete at State with the show you qualified with. I honestly can't believe there isn't some sort of constraint like this in place already. North Central qualified with their show that contained "Closer", not "The Devil You Know". With this slight bend in the rules, what is to stop a group from competing at normal competitions with a certain show, then using a completely new show at State. A group could just throw in a bunch of songs from their musical, since those numbers would have already been highly rehearsed and perfected. I will say that even though I really disliked NC's show this year, I did my best to view their show at finals objectively and I still had FC winning. "The Devil You Know" was very clean for being learned last week...but that's just it. It was clean for the time constraint, but not super clean overall.
2) FC Singers' finals performance was PERFECT. It was textbook show choir. If it had been anything other than an ISSMA score sheet, they would have blown everyone else out of the water. They were very very clean, their vocals were amazing, every picture they hit was perfect. If I could just order a DVD of their finals performance, I would without any hesitation whatsoever. I looked for Damon afterwards because I just wanted to tell him how amazed I was with it.
For mixed, I had Pike, Carmel, and FC going into finals based on their prelims performances (though I will admit that I was generally angry at NC for reusing, so I couldn't watch them without prejudice). I loved Carmel's show...I loved Virtuoso and I loved their vocals in the ballad.
For final standings, I had FC winning, then NC, then BD for the mixed and Carmel, then FC, then NC for the girls.
If the Descants used less unison, they could be amazing. But they seem to have reverted back to the old Descant formula of singing in unison and then using the parts as a "wow" factor. And, I may be mistaken, but didn't they reuse songs from old shows too? I don't know but it just seemed....familiar.
I will say that as far as Counter Points goes, the boy with the red v-neck and the solo in 96,000...love. Just love him. Be my friend, sir, be my friend.
in response to carmel being tired...if we remember back...towards the beginning of this topic when we were discussing if carmel was going to even compete, i, along with a few others, heard that ambassadors were thinking about not competing because they were going to be tired from their performances the two nights before. this may or may not have actually been the case. maybe it was mental for them...maybe it was truely fatigue...but, either way (if its true that they didnt want to compete because of possible fatigue) their fears were realized. though ive talked to multiple carmel ppl and they are ok with the results. they are happy with a great season.
WC had a very down show. It was REALLY obvious that there were people missing. I mean immediately in the opener you see a girl in front dancing without her male partner, and if you looked a row behnd that there were 2 guys without their female partners. The vocals were not as strong as they Have been, and considering the simplicity of their arrangements, i'd guess they wouldn't have been a top vocal contender at this competition even if they'd had all their members... I Hate to say it because i love warren, but truth is truth.
They could have sang like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir (which they did not... i had them 6th in vocals, dead last in choreo) and they'd still lose at competitions bc their choreo was not strong enough this year.
This makes me sad. Warren has always had AMAZING vocals. Earlier this year at LC, they were HALF a point behind Burbank In-Sync. Ahead of NC and Center Grove by over 10 points. I'm disappointed. Wish I could have been there, but I deffinately trust Wocttocs judgement. Just wish they could have performed to their full potential.
I've heard a rumor that Warren is getting a new choreographer next year. Heard if from a couple people in the group, but don't know for sure. I LOVE Eric (warrens cheoreographer) he is a gifted cheoreographer, but the judges don't like it. But If they sing like we all know they can, and have better cheoreo next year... they'll hopefully place better!!
I went to this competition rooting for FC and Carmel more than anyone else. I was hoping FC would win it, but i KNEW Carmel would come out and just blow everyone away... Well, i was disappointed...
I'd assume they were VERY tired, because they didn't look like a "Carmel" group...
The vocals were sloppy in Virtuoso (their closer) it was very loud, but out of balance and you couldn't really hear any of the inner parts. probably a good 40 percent of the show either showcased a Soloist or a small group of some sort on mics... The only time Carmel sang well was during the ballad, and at the end, it started to fall apart.
Carmel did have the show to beat at state, and i think if they'd gotten the shot at finals instead of BD, that they would have rallied themselves, come out and dominated this competition. Just like they did last weekend at Pike. Unfortunately they just didn't have the precision to compete with these other top level groups.
...because of COURSE no one in the Carmel Accents or Ambassadors is ever tired. they don't get tired because they're perfect!
..sarcasm.
I think that Carmel has had an awesome season, sure, everyone has their downfalls and it's crummy that Carmel's was at State. (a competition they weren't even GOING to go to until the last minute due to a large request from the choir) I'm not going to blame their lack of cleanliness due to their performances this past week. Why? (and I mean this in the most polite way possible and I don't want to make my choir seem high and mighty.) Because Castle, the Knight Sensations, had 10+ performances of their set all in 2 days this week before state (and other rehearsals in and out of classtime). The Performances that the Ambassadors had should've cleaned their show even more and if they were out of energy, they should've slept more before they got there since they performed second to last. I am a huge fan of the Ambassadors, and it was shocking when their names weren't called under the finalist category, but I still think their season was superb. end.
overall, i would like to say that i was pretty happy with the results last night, as opposed to previous years... although, i was still subject to a few surprises : )
large mixed:
CONGRATS TO CP!!! haha you guys finally got the GC at state that you have deserved for the past few years... and i was sooo glad to hear it...
also, a HUGE congratulations to FC SINGERS... i really like your guys' shows, and i was hoping that you would beat out a couple of other groups to make it into finals... when i heard that you did, i was rooting for you for second... and it happened! YAY!
small mixed:
thanks to everybody for a great day; generally, everyone was very amiable and respectful... and all of us from plainfield appreciate that so much ; )
dekalb: congrats on the GC and the caption sweep... you guys perform the heck out of your show, and i think that you were deserving...
i hope that you all are very excited... GC at state is a HUGE deal... plainfield wanted it sooo badly haha... i don't say that to be mean, or to make anyone feel badly... i just want you guys to appreciate your accomplishment! GREAT JOB!
columbia city: i was rooting for you guys for the third finals spot... great job! fun show!
ps- i kept mistaking you guys for plainfield people all day... i guess teal polos are the thing, huh? haha
well, for me, show choir is over forever... it's kinda sad... : (
and yes, i did cry after our finals performance...
i just want to say that i thought warren was amazing, and i felt extremely horrible for what happened.. i just wanted to congratulate them on an amazing show.. look forward to seeing you next year!
I doubt I'm the only person thinking this, so I'm just going to be the brave one to put it out there...
As much as I'd like to believe that ISSMA tried to help smaller schools feel more included in the state scene this year, I'm afraid they dropped the ball in the selection of the judges at Plainfield. I would find it hard to believe that anyone who saw the daytime preliminaries honestly thought that the 3 groups who made it to finals were truly the best 3 groups of the day. When the announcement was made as to which groups had made the finals, it was quite a sight. I have never seen more puzzled looks on everyone's face when people realized which 3 groups had actually made it (speaking of, I think everyone hated the way ISSMA announced the finalists; very confusing and annoying). Even after afternoon awards were over, and people were standing around talking in the common areas, people were still questioning the results and guessing that there had been a mistake in the calculations!! I'm guessing ISSMA will be getting some phone calls on Monday!
Feel free to disagree if you wish; maybe I just happened to be around every person who thought the results were incorrect. Though I will say that I was not anywhere near the choir that I think should have gotten in, and those who were expressing their confusion were not affliated with that group. In my opinion (and of seemingly every other person there): wow, if that's truly how the judges perceived the day, then I think ISSMA might want to consider a new panel for next year. Otherwise, I have a feeling there will be quite a few groups not returning in the future.
Regardless of all of this, congrats to all. The judges' terrible decisions are not the fault of the students or directors, and every group should be proud of a job well done. I just hope ISSMA will get a clue before next year; if they don't, then I think state finals might disappear pretty quickly.
When you have 10 outstanding choirs competing against each other, SOMEONE is going to be be #10, #9, #4, etc. (Actually, when you're dealing with hundreds of possible points, I almost wish there was a rule that said unless there is at least a, what, full point? 3 point? 5 point? differential, it's called a tie. None of this hundredths of a point crap. A judge sneezes at the wrong time, misses a chord out of tune, and gives that choir a 9 instead of an 8. Another is writing on his score sheet and misses some terrific choreography, giving that choir a 7.5 instead of a more accurate 8.) So remember that it's not like 1 through 3 = good, 4 through 10 = bad. It's a testament to the calibre of Indiana groups that so many outstanding programs were not finalists -- not to mention all the good Hoosier choirs that don't even participate.
And to those who complain about "armography" versus dancing or footwork, given the right moment with the right piece, simple can be most effective. Unless there is a specific category for "degree of difficulty," a judge really can't mark down something considered easy if it is clean and effective. Same thing applies to vocalism; four parts done well will score just as high as eight parts or more unless degree of difficulty is at least a sub-category.
Just a random question that has nothing to do with results, does anyone know why they only take 9 finalists as opposed to 10 like they do in marching band? It was just something I thought about when I remembered that there were 10 large schools there but only 9 small schools. Like I said, just a random thought I had.
On to my questions and comments from yesterday.
Large school:
1) Did something happen during Carmel's show that could have cost them finals (prop not working, band overpowering, wrong costume)? I know that judging is highly subjective and I know that can be it, too, I was just wondering if there was something like that. It happens a lot in marching band where a top group will have something happen in there show that hurst their score.
2) Congrats to the 3 finalists. I have heard nothing but fantastic comments about your shows and I wish I could have been there.
3) How close were the scores overall? I see that the top 4 were very very very close after day time competitions, but how close were the other 6 choirs. Just curious.
Small school:
1) Congrats to the finalists! I didn't get to see Plainfield because we were warming up and then standing back stage, but I am sure you guys were fantastic as always.
2) Dekalb, I had never seen your show before, but it was phenominal! I loved it. You choreo was so so clean.
3) Thank you to Plainfield for hosting this event. This was Northridge's first year at state finals, and we could not have asked for a better first time.
Congrats to all the schools at state finals. Just to be there is a huge accomplishment. Plus, everyone had a fabulous show.
I went to this competition rooting for FC and Carmel more than anyone else. I was hoping FC would win it, but i KNEW Carmel would come out and just blow everyone away... Well, i was disappointed...
I'd assume they were VERY tired, because they didn't look like a "Carmel" group...
The vocals were sloppy in Virtuoso (their closer) it was very loud, but out of balance and you couldn't really hear any of the inner parts. probably a good 40 percent of the show either showcased a Soloist or a small group of some sort on mics... The only time Carmel sang well was during the ballad, and at the end, it started to fall apart.
Carmel did have the show to beat at state, and i think if they'd gotten the shot at finals instead of BD, that they would have rallied themselves, come out and dominated this competition. Just like they did last weekend at Pike. Unfortunately they just didn't have the precision to compete with these other top level groups.
Just a random question that has nothing to do with results, does anyone know why they only take 9 finalists as opposed to 10 like they do in marching band? It was just something I thought about when I remembered that there were 10 large schools there but only 9 small schools. Like I said, just a random thought I had.
On to my questions and comments from yesterday.
Large school:
1) Did something happen during Carmel's show that could have cost them finals (prop not working, band overpowering, wrong costume)? I know that judging is highly subjective and I know that can be it, too, I was just wondering if there was something like that. It happens a lot in marching band where a top group will have something happen in there show that hurst their score.
2) Congrats to the 3 finalists. I have heard nothing but fantastic comments about your shows and I wish I could have been there.
3) How close were the scores overall? I see that the top 4 were very very very close after day time competitions, but how close were the other 6 choirs. Just curious.
Small school:
1) Congrats to the finalists! I didn't get to see Plainfield because we were warming up and then standing back stage, but I am sure you guys were fantastic as always.
2) Dekalb, I had never seen your show before, but it was phenominal! I loved it. You choreo was so so clean.
3) Thank you to Plainfield for hosting this event. This was Northridge's first year at state finals, and we could not have asked for a better first time.
Congrats to all the schools at state finals. Just to be there is a huge accomplishment. Plus, everyone had a fabulous show.
Indiana State Small School Finals 2009
