Well, doing it on budget is kinda hard because everyone fundraises, unless you say, "Okay, you can't go past $_____ on a show for one group if you're going to compete in this division."
And this could into detail about all of the financial checking, which really no one wants to do, I feel.
Idk, we'd have to REALLY elaborate on the finances if we base divisions on budget.
I agree! It is a good idea! Especially if you mean the budget designated to the school for the choral program... Or how much a singer dancer has to pay to be member... But again any method will have a flaw and this ones is: what about some of the phenomenal groups that use few or no set pieces at all. Also, a lot of schools have no real "designated budget" for the show choir outside of what the school pays the director... The budget would have to be strictly defined... But some groups are able to pull off awesome shows with minimal funding... I like the idea though!
I'd like to interrupt this discussion about how the show choir divisions should be determined (it should be by budget btw)...
Well, doing it on budget is kinda hard because everyone fundraises, unless you say, "Okay, you can't go past $_____ on a show for one group if you're going to compete in this division."
And this could into detail about all of the financial checking, which really no one wants to do, I feel.
Idk, we'd have to REALLY elaborate on the finances if we base divisions on budget.
Friday Night results I was there for:
Single-Gender Middle School
1) Oak Showstoppers(Musicianship)
2) Luther Spotlight (Showmanship)
3) Oak Showmen
4) John Muir Girls Next Door
I'm so happy that all the Urbandale folks were able to make the trek out to Cali for this one and see a whole different type of show. It's amazing though, that students are so similar no matter where they are from. Whether it's my performers in Georgia who love boiled peanuts and crawfish,....my students in California that polish surfboards and have meetings with agents,...the people in Indiana/Iowa that trudge through mountains of snow to get to the bus stop,....there's greatness in all of them!
Although with any job there are things you really hate (time in airports, prep time, early mornings time spent away from loved ones),....I feel SO incredibly blessed by God to be able to do what I do for a living. To know my Iowa kids (I say "kids" lovingly and not condescendingly!) were able to spend a day with my Burbank, Carlsbad and Mt Eden folks makes me feel so great.
I'm sure that stupid Damon stories were exchanged (Lord knows there are a million of them at least!!). Friends were made, laughs were shared, exposure to great shows and new parts of the country,......and the precious gift of music, with all its joy, energy, and ability to transport us to incredible worlds we create for others. To get lost in that, and embrace our passions,......cool.
So do you feel that all groups currently in the "double-A" division should still be competing against all of the "triple-A" groups, since all of those groups are the most "advanced" level choirs at their school?
I'd like to interrupt this discussion about how the show choir divisions should be determined (it should be by budget btw) and lay down some praise for Burbank High School and the marvelous hosts they provided Urbandale High School.
We felt as welcome as we ever have at a competition even back home in Iowa. I'm going to assume the emcee's comment during our intro about "welcome to America" was meant in good fun. Our hosts Meghan and Bella...and bonus host Ian...made us feel right at home and quickly took care of every issue or request we had.
The competition was of course outstanding and our kids thoroughly enjoyed all of the shows they were able to watch. I'm glad they were able to experience first hand the production value brought to the stage by Los Al and Burroughs.
Also, the young lady that got best soloist from Burroughs...WOW. I think she may be the most gifted female high school singer I have heard in my show choir career. She just effortlessly moved from her chest voice to her head voice and back again. Then just when I thought she couldn't get any better, she blew me away with her power by belting at the top of her range in a way that wasn't harsh or painful to witness. In my opinion she didn't need a dress that lit up to make a lasting impression.
I'm assuming Burroughs has been planning this show for several years and started stunting the growth of students back in like 2009 so they would have powerhouse singers (see what I did there?) who could pass for convincing young children.
My kids had a blast just chatting with the Cali kids out in the courtyard and making friends from a new time zone. It's definitely true that show choir kids are the same no matter where they are from.
Hopefully we can return to California again sometime in the future.
Anyway, I feel like a good way to address this whole situation without using finals is to have an "overall awards" type ceremony. So give division type awards - like trying to make the state championship in football - then give like a top 6 award ceremony - like our "just for funzies" games. This way it encourages all groups to try to better themselves to be considered one of the best. Sure, the tier 1 groups will most likely win top 3, but it at least challenges the other groups to be better. This way the tier 2 is trying to overtake the tier 1 and the tier 3 the tier 2 to try to earn a spot as one of the best overall. Just a thought...
Oh, please no! Missouri current utilizes this model at some of their competitions and it's just silly. If you're going to have overall awards, it just goes back to why are there divisions in the first place? If at the end of the day all of the groups are going to be compared to one another for the overall awards and they were all inherently scored with the same framework then the idea of divisions has no point other than to provide more placements outside the top 6.
I think if you're going to use divisions, then stand by them 100%. Commit to them. California does this and while there might be flaws, I think it makes more sense than most of the competitions out there.
First I know for football (the MAIS at least) what Victor said is accurate. The team I play on is in the largest division for PRIVATE schools, but we will play higher division public schools and even teams from other states that are in their higher divisions during our season. Those games don't "count" for anything... they are, for all intents and purposes, "just for funzies." The games do, however, challenge us to maintain dominance over other teams no matter their division, school type, or state. We do those games because we want to be the best and want everyone to know how good we really are. Which no one would ever know if we only played the other private schools in our division....
With that said I'm going to try to take what is good about that and apply it to show choir. In the south the divisions are all done by number of singer/dancers ON STAGE. Not in the group but on the stage at any given time. The smallest is 20 and under followed by 20-32 and then 32 plus. Then, of course, we do finals based on the highest score in ANY division. So, it works pretty well down here because there are a few groups every year that are in the highest division that will be indisputably better than any 32 and under group (Clinton is a traditional example of that type of group), but outside of the top 3 the under 32 groups really do have a fighting chance of making finals.... For example, at South Jones this year there were 5 big groups in attendance and 3 of them made finals. So, the system works -- Minus the whole artificial cap leading to rotating and giving an unfair advantage.
Anyway, I feel like a good way to address this whole situation without using finals is to have an "overall awards" type ceremony. So give division type awards - like trying to make the state championship in football - then give like a top 6 award ceremony - like our "just for funzies" games. This way it encourages all groups to try to better themselves to be considered one of the best. Sure, the tier 1 groups will most likely win top 3, but it at least challenges the other groups to be better. This way the tier 2 is trying to overtake the tier 1 and the tier 3 the tier 2 to try to earn a spot as one of the best overall. Just a thought...
Sports is a bit different, but Mr. Jennings does have a point.
In football (at least in San Diego County), there's 6 different divisions.
During the season, it's up to the coaches to decide what teams they play, no matter the division.
Leagues can be made up of multiple divisions (for example, in the league Chula plays in , Open Division, Division I, and Division III are all represented). Depending on the record within the league, a champion, co-champions, or even tri-champions is determined.
In playoffs, however, teams strictly play the teams in their division. So at the end of the playoff bracket, there are 6 different champions, one for every division. Those in the top division, I believe, go on to the State Championship Bracket.
Obviously, show choir is not big and simple enough to follow this system, and this system is a little bit flawed itself.
But it does encourage a team to try to move up divisions by constantly competing against those higher teams, along with doing well in their own division.
Perhaps one day we'll figure out a way to encourage schools to try and compete in higher tiers rather than be comfortable or feel trapped in their own tier.
P.S: I'm sorry if this is a bit confusing, I was sorta brainstorming something in hopes someone could think of a solution or an idea or something.
High School sports teams do have divisions in California. The Burroughs football team for instance would likely NEVER have to compete against the Los Alamitos football team because they are in a higher sports division then us. That being said, I don't really know how it all works, but I know they try to keep teams of similar levels playing each other.
The directors agreed this summer that numbers wasn't the only factor in a group being AAA or AA. We made that rule into a guideline and agreed that each competition director should decide for themselves. Thus Mt. Eden performed in AA with more than 40 people at Burbank and will again at Burroughs and Chula. I think the level is absolutely appropriate for them.
Nobody really wants finals out here, but it is a way to have separate awards, but also a chance for everyone to compete against one another. Have a class, but then have the opportunity to make finals and compete. Our days are already WAY too long though.
Fair enough. I've been a pretty vocal opponent of the whole idea since it was proposed, so I can't say I completely disagree with you. What I actually think is most detrimental about the split, however, is that it presents an artificial ceiling for the tier II groups. In other words, they only have to be better than the best group in their division; they don't have to press themselves to be better than the other "top level" choirs. That limits creativity and stifles progress.
In fact, a lot of those "double-a" groups used to be competitive with what are now "triple-a" groups just a decade ago. Yes, the show choir landscape has changed quite a bit in that time - but keeping up with it and pushing personal limits is what challenges choirs to be the best versions of themselves they can be. With no pressure of having to keep up with the bigger groups, I feel that some choirs haven't "evolved" as much as they might have if that competitive edge was still there. Not only that, but I certainly hate to think that some groups have rejected talented members simply because they don't want to cross a magical 40-singer threshold. What good is this doing for anyone?
That being said, there are other variables at play. Not every group has the resources (and I don't just mean financially) that perhaps the tier I groups do. This is a little bit different than sports where all you need is a ball to play and everything else is pretty equal. I know if I was starting a show choir, I would find competing against those top groups awfully intimidating. And I do think it's fully reasonable that skill levels do exist... heck, the "intermediate" groups from Burroughs and Burbank often place highest in their divisions - even when they're competing against groups that are the best that other schools have to offer! To say that many of those currently "tier III" groups should have to compete in what is now a tier I setting would be a bit ridiculous, too. The circumstances are different for everyone and having a fair shot to accomplish success at your level should be respected, I think. Maybe I'm being too "PC" with that view, but so much of a choir's success is out of the hands of the students themselves (this also contrasts greatly with sports) that I feel at least somewhat comfortable having it.
I wish more people got involved in the discussion and weren't so guarded about voicing opinions for fear of what others may think, but these are all great things to think about. Others have raised questions about judging and bias in other topics and I think that area needs a serious look in 2014 as well. Hopefully at least some of this is being discussed, even if it is behind closed doors. There often is no one perfect solution to many of these issues, but at least through public discourse we can make steps in the right direction together. That's what I made showchoir.com for, and as long as there is an interest in making positive changes to our wonderful activity I will continue to provide this space for everyone to use.
Only if a school has more than one mixed show choir should one of them be considered "intermediate mixed" or "novice mixed." If there's just one show choir, it's that school's advanced show choir, period.
So do you feel that all groups currently in the "double-A" division should still be competing against all of the "triple-A" groups, since all of those groups are the most "advanced" level choirs at their school?
Only if a school has more than one mixed show choir should one of them be considered "intermediate mixed" or "novice mixed." If there's just one show choir, it's that school's advanced show choir, period. As far as I know, a HS basketball team doesn't get to decide if they're going to be JV or Varsity one year to the next, and the same thing should apply here.
I suppose I could see that if a school has never had a show choir before that they could opt out of "advanced" for a year or two. I could even see an argument made for divisions determined by size of the choir or size of the school, but otherwise it smacks me as being politically correct and wanting to make sure more groups take home trophies.
When I was producing Burroughs Music Showcase, I received an e-mail from a director saying that if we ever decided to have a novice division, they'd consider coming. I thanked her for her input and asked her what the parameters should be. For how many years or competitions can a group be considered novice? Should it be based on the amount of freshmen or underclassmen in the choir; i.e. more than 50% = novice? Should it be based on the experience of the director? Does a new teacher get a break even if taking over an established program? I never got a response.
Also interesting to see Cypress "High Voltage" in the intermediate mixed division here (Tier III). Previously they have competed in the top advanced mixed division and also the smaller advanced mixed division. So are choirs allowed to choose their category in the SoCal circuit?
Yep, and personally I think this system works the best. It's pretty obvious if you're in a tier you don't belong (ie, you clearly outclass the rest of the groups in the division), and things sort themselves out pretty easily. Perhaps one would ask, "well why not just move down a division where you know you'll place higher?," but there's no honor in that and I don't think many people find satisfaction in "winning" when there's no challenge involved. It would be like an adult entering an arm wrestling contest with a five year old. I think this approach makes a lot more sense than separating groups by school or choir size, which may or may not have a direct affect on the groups' ability.
Cypress' situation is unique in that they're probably a Tier II choir in California, but the double-A/triple-A nonsense that was started a handful of years back makes their situation difficult. Basically, it was clear that a new emerging tier was developing within the top-level choirs, including groups like Burroughs, Burbank, Brea, and Los Al, and in order to accommodate them a new division of groups was created. The existing "advanced mixed" groups didn't want to be called "intermediate," however, so they just split the advanced division in two and made the dividing line 40 singer/dancers; the first time separation by number of students had become a factor in California show choir. This worked okay (although it caused some groups to artificially cap their numbers to stay under the new arbitrary line), but what about groups like Mt. Eden and Cypress who have more than 40 but previously belonged in the advanced division? You're seeing it play out here.
Cypress is probably not competitive in the "triple-A" space but their group is larger than 40, so they're forced to make a choice between competing with the other "triple-A" groups or dropping down to the current "intermediate" level. Mt. Eden also performed in intermediate last year, handily winning in that division, but I believe at SoCal this year they're making an exception (since this is clearly all very silly) and are being allowed to perform in the "double-A" space as in the past.
This could have all been avoided if they just renamed the divisions to novice, intermediate, and advanced instead of intermediate, "double-A," and "triple-A" (which doesn't even mean anything in the first place) and just not implemented a maximum number of students requirement. This is another reason I devised the tier system, as it reduces implication of ability and just shows how different divisions are separated.
Also interesting to see Cypress "High Voltage" in the intermediate mixed division here (Tier III). Previously they have competed in the top advanced mixed division and also the smaller advanced mixed division. So are choirs allowed to choose their category in the SoCal circuit?
Advanced women: John Burroughs Sound Sensations, First place, Best Musicianship, Best Showmanship Los Alamitos Soundtrax, Second Hart Hartbreakers, Third
Advanced women: John Burroughs Sound Sensations, First place, Best Musicianship, Best Showmanship Los Alamitos Soundtrax, Second Hart Hartbreakers, Third
Burbank Blast! (Day Two) 2014
I've been a pretty vocal opponent of the whole idea since it was proposed, so I can't say I completely disagree with you. What I actually think is most detrimental about the split, however, is that it presents an artificial ceiling for the tier II groups. In other words, they only have to be better than the best group in their division; they don't have to press themselves to be better than the other "top level" choirs. That limits creativity and stifles progress.