Unless a choir has its students choreograph their entire set and arrange all the music, those aspects of the show are at least partly outside of the students' control also. Yes, singing and dancing should be grounded in proper technique that could be scored fairly objectively, but without the element of showmanship no one is going to much care what a choir is singing and dancing about.
Show choir is inherently subjective. I believe it's best to embrace that quality and include show design captions in competition scoresheets. I understand the arguments opposing this train of thought, but I think it's best to reward those choirs that showcase a complete product, instead of just a technically-polished song cycle.
To comment on what people have been speaking of in terms of what the students cannot control...I agree completely. Show design, song choice, costumes, etc, all in which are subjective the students cannot control are all highly important to judges, especially in theis crazy Indiana system. I prefer a more objective style of judging.
PS- I wish I could make judgements about the turnout, but youtube videos from different comps don't do them justice..
I would need to see them live..
Good point. The youtube videos I've seen make me lean towards WV, but you can't really judge unless you were there live. I'm personally thrilled that BG got the GC. I loved their show
I don't see why it's such a big deal to you to have people express their opinions in their own ways. How they do it is at their own risk. I've made some pretty critical things about choirs on here, however I'll usually try to back them up with a positive. It's our God given, and constitutional right, to express ourselves. If you don't want to read other people's thoughts on shows and you think that they shouldn't comment, then don't read. If it upsets you so much then why would you continue to read people's thoughts?
All of these arguments are so petty. Everyone has a right to their opinion. If you cannot accept opinion, then you obviously cannot handle constructive criticism either. I have said "I didn't like..." about a lot of show choirs, including my own. If we let everyone keep that freedom of speech and everyone recognizes that, then there is no problem here.
i figured it wasn't worth opening a new tab or stopping what i was doing to make the comment.
It's worth it.
That is why we hire judges to make the decisions and critique. We also hire directors so that what the judges say in their critiques can be addressed by someone who actually has some influence over the group.
So now we see that show choir, while i do believe it to be Art, is not subjective.
There are certainly parts of a groups show that are less subjective than others. If you sing on pitch, you are doing an objectively better job than a group who doesn't. But even areas of show design are open to interpretation. Just because there is a score sheet doesn't mean that's the best way it should be scored.
We respect the judges' decisions and realize that it is a very difficult job to do. I have been a guest judge at a festival-type event in the past and know firsthand how demanding and stressful it can be. But while we accept the decisions that the judges make, it doesn't mean we always have to agree with them. Even in a more objective competition like a sport one can disagree. Does an umpire always make the right call? We are simply here as individuals who love this medium to discuss, learn, and grow together. The website provides an opportunity for this. And it's my personal opinion that a 13 year-old in a middle school choir may provide a perspective or insight about a show just as a seasoned director of several decades might. It's an inclusive place and you don't need a degree to post here. I just ask that the discussions be kept civil, respectful, and not personal.
I think we're all on the same page now, so I'll ask that this part of the discussion come to an end. If anyone has something further to say on the matter, the PM system works wonders - especially if you use Firefox! (just a little bit of SCC humor to brighten your day).
Thank you to those who have kept on topic and worked to have a positive discussion amongst the minor speedbump. It is appreciated!
I can understand the basis of your thought process, Scott, but this is art and subjective at its very core. Sure, the students probably don't have a say as to what their costumes might be but that doesn't mean as part of the overall picture of a show it isn't worth discussing. "Why are they wearing a red firey dress in a song about cold mourning?," for example. Maybe there's an interesting approach that the director took or maybe it truly is out of place. The point is, it doesn't matter if you're a student, a choreographer, or a director; these are all things which don't have a singular "right" or "wrong" answer and are open to interpretation. And yes, I do think there is great value in discussing it. I think the last 10 years of show choir have been the most exciting and innovative from a show design point of view, and I do think that the global nature of SCC has helped to influence that. The medium is a lot more interactive than it ever has been, and not only are we able to see lots of shows from around the country that we were never able to before, we can also provide feedback and intelligent discourse about every facet of a show. That in itself promotes progression and positive development.
To the educational side of things, sure a director knows if his or her group has gone flat during the ballad. But I think it's fair in a recap of an event to say "I really appreciated this group, but the intonation during the third number was a bit off and that's why I had them in third place." That's not slapping anyone in the face, that's simply saying here is my justification for outlining the groups the way I have, and these are the things I believe the group could work on to make their show better. I don't always agree with what Adam and Aaron have to say, but I certainly appreciate their well thought-out analysis of the events they attend and wish more people would do the same. It doesn't mean they're right, it just means that this is what they took from what they saw. And that's precisely the kind of discussion that helps all of us learn and grow. So whether you agree with someone else's post or not, let's be constructive about our approach and work toward adding to the conversation and not belittling it. That was the point of my post.
As far as the logging out situation is concerned, I'm aware of the issue and am working to fix it. There is one person that codes this site in its entirety and there's an awful lot to do to make everything function properly. What would really be helpful is a PM stating a problem you might be having so that I can look into it, rather than airing disgust in a public forum where I may not even see it to begin with. Thanks!
Hey now Haakon... i wasn't trying to "air disgust" i was just frustrated... and you were reading the topic... so i figured it wasn't worth opening a new tab or stopping what i was doing to make the comment.
Second of all, i never said that saying "you didn't execute your show as well as the other groups did, and i had you 3rd because of it" was a slap in the face... That's an opinion.
"i don't get the show design" ... sure
" i would have preferred...." ... Sure
"i didn't like the closer costumes" .... nothing anyone on here needs to hear or wants to hear... blatant criticism for no reason.
Yes, art is subjective... The only way to Judge a subjective competition. Is to use a score sheet. Which is concrete and NOT subjective...
That is why we hire judges to make the decisions and critique. We also hire directors so that what the judges say in their critiques can be addressed by someone who actually has some influence over the group.
So now we see that show choir, while i do believe it to be Art, is not subjective.
Every contest has a score sheet. Every contest a concrete idea of what will win the competition. That idea may be different from location to location, but it is still a guideline for what is good and what is bad... that my friends, is the opposite of subjective.
if we hire professionals to do the math at the competition... why do so many arrogant snobs feel the need to pop in with Their own, more detailed, less expert opinions...
I can understand the basis of your thought process, Scott, but this is art and subjective at its very core. Sure, the students probably don't have a say as to what their costumes might be but that doesn't mean as part of the overall picture of a show it isn't worth discussing. "Why are they wearing a red firey dress in a song about cold mourning?," for example. Maybe there's an interesting approach that the director took or maybe it truly is out of place. The point is, it doesn't matter if you're a student, a choreographer, or a director; these are all things which don't have a singular "right" or "wrong" answer and are open to interpretation. And yes, I do think there is great value in discussing it. I think the last 10 years of show choir have been the most exciting and innovative from a show design point of view, and I do think that the global nature of SCC has helped to influence that. The medium is a lot more interactive than it ever has been, and not only are we able to see lots of shows from around the country that we were never able to before, we can also provide feedback and intelligent discourse about every facet of a show. That in itself promotes progression and positive development.
To the educational side of things, sure a director knows if his or her group has gone flat during the ballad. But I think it's fair in a recap of an event to say "I really appreciated this group, but the intonation during the third number was a bit off and that's why I had them in third place." That's not slapping anyone in the face, that's simply saying here is my justification for outlining the groups the way I have, and these are the things I believe the group could work on to make their show better. I don't always agree with what Adam and Aaron have to say, but I certainly appreciate their well thought-out analysis of the events they attend and wish more people would do the same. It doesn't mean they're right, it just means that this is what they took from what they saw. And that's precisely the kind of discussion that helps all of us learn and grow. So whether you agree with someone else's post or not, let's be constructive about our approach and work toward adding to the conversation and not belittling it. That was the point of my post.
As far as the logging out situation is concerned, I'm aware of the issue and am working to fix it. There is one person that codes this site in its entirety and there's an awful lot to do to make everything function properly. What would really be helpful is a PM stating a problem you might be having so that I can look into it, rather than airing disgust in a public forum where I may not even see it to begin with. Thanks!
Which made me think "Has any Show Choir done 'Tonight' from West Side Story?" I love that song.
the best rendition is Huntington North's 2006 ballad. They start with "just the way you look tonight" all acapella then they break into Tonight, with some of the best vocals i've heard.
Alright, so i wrote out a really long nice response... and then it logged me out... Someone should definitely fix that... not difficult coding...
Anyway...
My biggest issue is that i think some people and not even just Adam, have gotten a bit arrogant.
I know Adam keeps saying that i never change, well the fact is that i have.
I had absolutely no issue with Adam once i rejoined the forums a few days ago. I even joked when he sarcastically said "long time, no see, scott." Then i came to this topic and read his post...
THEN i had a problem...
The issue i have (and i took time away from this site specifically because of this realization) is that students, meaning, US, or people without degrees in music. Should not under any circumstances be giving critique about SHOW DESIGN on the boards.
These are the things we all know, STUDENTS have no control over
Costumes
Riser layout
Arrangements
Sound malfunctions
song selection
pacing of the show and total design (ie: transitions and such)
Comments about anything in this list, should ONLY be directed towards the director of the choir in question, and in probably 99% of cases, they know more than you. So whats the point?
When you comment negatively on something that the group you're speaking to has no control over, it's just a slap in the face and completely worthless
We really don't understand that anything we have to say to the negative effect has probably already been observed and commented on by the qualified critique judges? if not by the judges then by the Degree holding Director of the choir?
It is demeaning for someone like me, or adam, or rian, or haakon, or Anyone on this site who is a Student at any level, to be critiquing other students with little less knowledge.
If the altos were flat in the ballad, the director heard it... If the band was late at the start of the closer, it was on the recap video.
Stop being so self important and just encourage one another... Far to late for that to happen with myself and Adam. But learn from my mistakes and think before you press "add reply"
DeKalb Show Choir Invitational 2009
