i know we've passed the issue of SCC, and moved on to scoring, but forgive me as i've just caught up.
i decided a long time ago that i would only post positive, supportive comments on SCC. i also decided i would never make predictions, and this is not a critique on those who do because i love seeing them. i decided on this for many reasons, and it has made my experience on SCC and in the show choir world more enjoyable. a big reason i committed to this was because of my show choir director and his influence on me to be a kind positive member, not only to the group but within the show choir realm. are there certain styles that i don't love? yes. do i get past that every single time and focus upon the love, passion, and commitment to a show? yes. every single time. do i believe every single thing i post here? yes. do i sometimes think snarky things? yes. do i ever want to post them? no. never. why? because if a student saw something i thought about their ballad setting, or their rip off costume change, or their hair, whatever it may be... and thought it directly reflected their efforts and love for show choir??? and deterred them from doing their best? or hurt them? or made them love what they were doing, even a little less? is that worth it? i made a commitment to use my voice to tell people what i love about their show, about their performance.
now, am i saying everyone should just tell each other they love each other and bake a cake full of rainbows together? (maybe a little bit. that might be nice, actually. think of all the friends you could make!) am i saying we get rid of discussion and constructive commentary? no!!!!! never!!!!! we should have discussions on style, on choreography, on difficulty. we should have discussions on novelty numbers and lifts and hair flips. we should talk about it all, but we should also keep in mind what our words do and how to phrase things. we should make sure our words do not seem like accusations *cough cough* or bullying.
i may be a little sensitive about this considering i was a member of power company, but i am more so sensitive because i love show choir. i was a member on SCC in high school, before anyone had twitter and before there was a show choir facebook page. this was my place to learn, to meet new friends... not a place for me to be discouraged. did i see comments about our show that hurt my feelings? yes. did it stop me? never... but i had parents who did everything they could to support me. i had a group of mentors i could go to. i had choreographers that i respected, that i loved, that i felt close to (hi kevin! hi damon!). i had friends from show choir camp and from SCC and other groups who i could go to. i lived in a community that supported the music programs. not everyone has that experience, or support, or love.
we all have people we can go to when we want to talk about the way a group is doing things, especially if we personally do not approve. save that for them. or a nice private journal. if you wouldn't say it to a sophomore girl in curlers or a freshman boy with eyeliner on, definitely don't say it on SCC.
as for things SCC could do to invite more people in.... i'm sure Häakon has been working on this for a while! (an app would be awesome though. or just a mobile site.) (is this where i mention i do social media consulting)
as for kevin chase... what!!!! what. WHAT. why would you say that, person who's username i don't remember?????? what.
ok. done. thanks for letting me get that out. congratulations to everyone who competed at milton. congratulations to waconia, i could never imagine scoring so closely to such incredible groups. you've made me very proud.
Still thinking about Sauk Prairie's show and how incredible it was! I just keep replaying it in my head all day long! So much talent radiates from that group! You guys were so spectacular and I am glad I had the honor to witness your show!
P.S. Someone should teach me that insane tribal dance break!
I'd assume that's not the norm at Muscatine? They had a major computer issue when tabulations needed to be entered at night and had to hand count it all…can't imagine-kudos to them for fast acting!
We have always sent schools home with full scores every year BUT this year due to what Kevin said- our computers literally shut down right before we had full finals scores due to a district update issue that occurred. To get full results out, we calculated everything by hand. We then put everything in the spread the next day after the update was completed and sent it to directors ASAP.
Well I know that Kevin. I was there. And I know it's not the norm. But I know when we went to Milton my senior year we got a composite that night. So I assume it's not the norm at Milton, either.
I think the reason it's not the norm is because Milton has a relatively new director. I believe it's the second year she's run the comp?
I'd assume that's not the norm at Muscatine? They had a major computer issue when tabulations needed to be entered at night and had to hand count it all…can't imagine-kudos to them for fast acting!
Well I know that Kevin. I was there. And I know it's not the norm. But I know when we went to Milton my senior year we got a composite that night. So I assume it's not the norm at Milton, either.
LOLLLLLL this has happened at both competitions Waconia has competed at. Granted, at Muscatine we received composites the next day.
I'd assume that's not the norm at Muscatine? They had a major computer issue when tabulations needed to be entered at night and had to hand count it all…can't imagine-kudos to them for fast acting!
I'm almost shocked that there is a competition in 2015 that lets the directors leave without ALL of the information, but that would explain why no one seems to have a concrete answer yet. Very interesting.
LOLLLLLL this has happened at both competitions Waconia has competed at. Granted, at Muscatine we received composites the next day.
Yes, we need a showchoir.com app...
That's what I meant by "regarding the phone thing, I hear you loud and clear. I still can't speak to it yet, but rest assured it is not something that is lost on me." Trust me, as one of just two people getting information updated for over 1,500 schools in our database, nobody wants an app more than I do. Hang in there.
There were 1240 points possible, 600 vocal, 600 choreography, 40 band... I believe WV had 1113, WWS had 1089, and Waconia had 1084. One thing that was slightly frustrating as a director was that we only received composite scores for the other groups, and not a breakdown of which judge gave which school which score.
Wow, the total separating 2nd and 3rd place is very small. I'm almost shocked that there is a competition in 2015 that lets the directors leave without ALL of the information, but that would explain why no one seems to have a concrete answer yet. Very interesting.
Maybe Facebook and Twitter are quicker and more easily accessed at competitions and what not? I know using this site on my phone is much more tedious than on my laptop, and lets be real-we are doing most everything on phones these days.
Yes, we need a showchoir.com app...
Also, raw scores were used to determine the winner. There were 1240 points possible, 600 vocal, 600 choreography, 40 band. This is all from what I remember of the score sheets last night, but I believe WV had 1113, WWS had 1089, and Waconia had 1084. Other than that, I can't remember any of the other numbers.
One thing that was slightly frustrating as a director was that we only received composite scores for the other groups, and not a breakdown of which judge gave which school which score. We requested that information and were told we might get it today, but haven't so far.
Kevin is correct about one of the judges scoring two ballots. After talking with one member of the staff of the competition, he shared this was not the original plan, but apparently the solo competition judge had to leave after the solo competition, meaning they were short one judge for finals. Neither of the critique judges from the daytime scored ballots, so for the evening (depending on how you look at it) there were "7" judges: three vocal, three choreography, and one band judge. So in the end, we received 7 ballots and there were 6 people judging.
Back to Milton, though, I've heard some funky things about scoring... would anyone care to share the breakdowns from this comp?
Not sure we have breakdowns yet...
I heard they had vocal and visual judges. Each scored their respective category they were put on.
I also heard one judge scored one choreo ballot and one vocal ballot - giving them double the points/double the say in results.
I know that 2 judges had Waconia in first in finals, but not sure what others had. They were unable to give out the entire score cumulative to the director and had mentioned it would be sent out afterwards.
I also believe it may have been based on raw score instead of ranking which can totally change the outcome. But not sure what all judges had yet.
Milton, Milton, Milton… This competition proved very interesting.
Waubonsie was amazing yesterday. Without a doubt they proved they deserved to win. Interestingly, their prelims was much stronger than finals, in my opinion. Obviously finals was still incredible but there seemed to be a drop off from the day show which is unlike them.
WWS was also amazing. Their prelims performance wasn't delivered like a classic Classics show but wow. their finals performance was stunning. It is very evident that they deserved to come in second behind WV.
I'm thinking that out of the some -40 dislikes I had for my previous post, probably 20 or more were Waconia kids. Lol. But they used it for fuel I guess. Their prelims performance was very strong. But I think that would be even more the case to those who don't have trained eyes in show choir (i.e. parents, grandparents, etc.)
They were good in prelims, but they were not elite.
As I thought from their video, their first half of their show was pretty average. Certainly not at the level required to keep up with WV or WWS. One thing I was worried about was this seemingly unqualified judging panel putting them in the top two. Waconia was loud pretty much the whole show. And a lot of people are easily impressed by that. But there is a major difference between the sound that Sound Check produces and the sound Waconia had. Not only was the first half of the show practically yelled (and out of tune for a majority of it) but they also sang A LOT of unison. Now it is pretty obvious that when everyone is singing the same note the sound will naturally be louder and fill the performance space.
The closer was clean, straight arms, etc. but is it that hard to do when half of the Free Bird chore is directly lifted from Attache's 2007 opener.
I honestly have nothing against Waconia. I think they were great yesterday. But third place was where they should have finished, and ultimately where they did finish.
Overall, the competition did a great job staying on time, keeping the day rolling, and finishing things up by 11. That was much appreciated by everyone.
Thanks, Kevin. This is the kind of civil discussion I think both of us want to see around here.
I apologize if my post read as stern; it's kind of a 'hot button' issue for me. I don't like the idea of anyone being able to tell someone else what websites they can or can't use - that feels really draconian to me. I also hope even you can see that saying "my kids aren't on it - but I wish they were!" seems a little silly given the direct influence you have with them. That being said, I know there are a lot of directors/choreographers that do want their kids to be involved and I am grateful for that. The reality is that everyone already is in one way or another; some just on other sites. That's perfectly fine, of course, but I just find it odd that something like Twitter is "okay" but SCC is not, given the way people write on Twitter. Perhaps SCC is just more condensed and easier to parse... but I still maintain we're a more positive resource overall.
As for Facebook and Twitter, there's no question that they compete for our attention... neither were around when showchoir.com debuted. That's just an evolution of the internet and something that every website has to deal with. Interestingly enough, attendance on SCC is actually way up over the last two years - it just seems that more people are using it as an informational resource than a social network these days, and that's totally fine with me. I do certainly enjoy conversing with people here though, and it's nice to be able to look back through archives in a way that's just not possible on some of the other sites. I also see them as trends... remember MySpace? That was huge for a hot minute. Facebook seems to be dying a bit right now among kids, where Twitter has the most attention. But the next generation will want their own thing and Twitter's reach will one day wane too. It's all sort of cyclical. We'll still be here regardless of what else is out there, though, and like always, people can choose to take advantage of it or not.
Regarding the phone thing, I hear you loud and clear. I still can't speak to it yet, but rest assured it is not something that is lost on me.
Thank you for your kind words and congratulations to you and all of the groups that participated this weekend... I think it's easy for people to forget just how much work goes into these shows. Whether you like the musical selection of a certain group or not, or whether you think the choreography is "too arm-y," it still takes a village to do what we're doing and a lot of long days of prep. The students aren't even responsible for the majority of that stuff, so many of the critiques aren't applicable to them anyway. I'm just glad we still have an activity that fosters music and creativity and personal growth, and a site that looks to celebrate that the best it can.
All I have to say after reading all of this back and forth is that Mark Meyers song selection for Sound Check this year seems so relevant and brilliant - here I was naive enough to think it was a hidden message for the kids only around social media, internet forums, etc and the hurtfulness it can cause. Thank you Mark for teaching kids (and us) about life as well as teaching them to sing.
Perhaps we should all listen a little more closely to the lyrics in that set.
Congrats to everyone at Milton - you all did great and are winners for the hard work and effort you put into it.
The Sound Check selection:
- People are People
- Now Generation
- What Goes Around Comes Around
- Those You've Known
- We Can Work it Out
- Somebody's Got Your Back
- Let's Get Together
The reality is simple: all content on the forums is completely user-generated. showchoir.com is not inherently "bad;" in fact I would counter that we do an amazing amount of good. We have raised money for schools in need, provide an incredibly comprehensive database of historical information, and connect students to those who may be thousands of miles away but who share their same interests. But the nature of any online-based discussion platform means that it's up to all of us - as a community - to productively add to the conversation. You will never eliminate all voices you don't care to hear from... that's just life. But to quote Macklemore, "have you read the YouTube comments lately?" Seen discussion on Twitter? showchoir.com is far and away a more nurturing, supportive environment for show choir kids than just about any other place I can think of. We strongly encourage non-anonymity to keep people responsible for the content of their posts in a world that seems to relish in it. There's no way to force it - even when we "require" certain things, a small percentage of people will lie - but our goal isn't to be "perfect" (we can never be); it's to provide as productive a space for students to come together and share their passions with other like-minded kids all over the country as is possible. It is generally those hiding in the shadows and who don't reveal themselves that say the nastiest things, but they are the minority.
Maybe after a certain number of downvotes a post needs to disappear... or at least be "collapsed" by default. I am always open to new suggestions to help make the site better. But by silencing your students and keeping them from the discussion, the irony is that you are increasing the percentage of negative posts. The good kids will listen to you and the bad ones will come on and post anyway.
This is not a personal reply, just a general one, so please don't take offense. I like you and support the work you do. But it does get a little old fighting the same fight year after year. You say "most of my students these days aren't even aware of the site. I wish more people would use this site!" Well gee, who do you think would be the best person to introduce your kids to the forums and engage in positive discussion? The forum component of showchoir.com is whatever you make it - it's a blank canvas until the community adds input. I say be a positive agent for the change you wish to see, not one who censors students and prevents them from meeting other incredible people who share the same joys in life that they do. That seems like an incredible loss to me.
I certainly do not take offense…I respect this site and respect you!
I have always been a fan of showchoir.com and use it for information and updates, as well as people's constructive opinions about groups, mine, or otherwise.
I wish more people would use this site for that, and have seen a decline in the number of people that post on here in the last few years- I am not sure exactly why that may be? Maybe Facebook and Twitter are quicker and more easily accessed at competitions and what not? I know using this site on my phone is much more tedious than on my laptop, and lets be real-we are doing most everything on phones these days.
I can't speak on Facebook or twitter pages or the percentage of people that use those forums as well, but I know a lot of directors defer their kids from coming on here because the negativity caused by a select few in the past and perhaps present!
I have always spoken highly of this site even when people have had concerns over it. I'd love to see more activity on here by students, directors, and industry professionals and more coverage of groups and main cover articles, updating more often, etc.
I get that it's not easy to regulate certain posting, and I know there has been several instances in the past with people making fake accounts, or "trolls" I believe they have been called. I wish there was a way to better control that, but I wouldn't have any idea how? I also don't expect someone to be on here 24/7 regulating posts- that seems a bit daunting.
If someone said something negative on Twitter I would never blame Twitter, and I did not mean to imply that I blame show choir.com for people's posts- that certainly is not the case. I just wish people would be more supportive and not attack or use such negative posts to get their opinions heard. It reflects badly on what this site should be about. I am not saying the negative or disrespectful posts about me or my groups in the past are the issues, I mean for all…
I get that we all have opinions and are entitled to them, but I wish there was a respect that more people use when sharing their thoughts and opinions.
I also agree 100% on the Mackelmore quote. This world has become such a negative place and it seems there is more and more complaining about things instead of trying to change them. I always tell my kids positive energy is contagious, but I think negative energy is even more contagious unfortunately. It's been said you have to be the good you want to see in the world, and maybe more people on here (myself included) need to be the good we want to see on this site. Maybe the positivity and support can outweigh the people who chose to be hurtful or hateful. Again, I am not deterring people's opinions- its great to have respectful dialogue.
I hope everyone can help in making this a supportive and positive place to share your thoughts, opinions, support, respect, etc of all the wonderful groups and people that make show choir such an amazing community to be apart of. showchoir.com has done a lot of wonderful things, and I was there to watch Haakon getting his Spirit of Service award from the FAME Aspire Awards- and it was well deserved!
I don't wish to comment on the quarrel happening here as I sadly was unable to see any of the groups yesterday and it wouldn't be prudent to do so. I will say, though, that I have been a longtime supporter of Waconia and their program - way before other individuals who seem to be jumping on the bus all of a sudden - and belive they are just as capable as other groups out there. There's more to show choir than just arm positions; passion is, to me, one of the most important and it's not even on the scoresheet. Of course you need it all to be one of the best groups, but it's easy to dismiss some over others when you're only looking at what's on the paper in front of you.
You called out showchoir.com a couple of times in the post though, specifically this, which I will continue to address especially since adults routinely like to bring it into the ether:
I know many directors who prefer their kids to not be on this site because of certain people/posts that really ruin what should be a supportive and encouraging place to discuss groups and results. Some people just really take it too far and are outright rude and demeaning in what they say about other people, groups, results, etc. Lets not forget how lucky we all are to be apart of this show choir community and learning from other groups and supporting other groups is one of the greatest things about this community!
The reality is simple: all content on the forums is completely user-generated. showchoir.com is not inherently "bad;" in fact I would counter that we do an amazing amount of good. We have raised money for schools in need, provide an incredibly comprehensive database of historical information, and connect students to those who may be thousands of miles away but who share their same interests. But the nature of any online-based discussion platform means that it's up to all of us - as a community - to productively add to the conversation. You will never eliminate all voices you don't care to hear from... that's just life. But to quote Macklemore, "have you read the YouTube comments lately?" Seen discussion on Twitter? showchoir.com is far and away a more nurturing, supportive environment for show choir kids than just about any other place I can think of. We strongly encourage non-anonymity to keep people responsible for the content of their posts in a world that seems to relish in it. There's no way to force it - even when we "require" certain things, a small percentage of people will lie - but our goal isn't to be "perfect" (we can never be); it's to provide as productive a space for students to come together and share their passions with other like-minded kids all over the country as is possible. It is generally those hiding in the shadows and who don't reveal themselves that say the nastiest things, but they are the minority.
Maybe after a certain number of downvotes a post needs to disappear... or at least be "collapsed" by default. I am always open to new suggestions to help make the site better. But by silencing your students and keeping them from the discussion, the irony is that you are increasing the percentage of negative posts. The good kids will listen to you and the bad ones will come on and post anyway.
This is not a personal reply, just a general one, so please don't take offense. I like you and support the work you do. But it does get a little old fighting the same fight year after year. You say "most of my students these days aren't even aware of the site. I wish more people would use this site!" Well gee, who do you think would be the best person to introduce your kids to the forums and engage in positive discussion? The forum component of showchoir.com is whatever you make it - it's a blank canvas until the community adds input. I say be a positive agent for the change you wish to see, not one who censors students and prevents them from meeting other incredible people who share the same joys in life that they do. That seems like an incredible loss to me.
Milton Choralation Invitational 2015
it still takes a village to do what we're doing and a lot of long days of prep. The students aren't even responsible for the majority of that stuff, so many of the critiques aren't applicable to them anyway. I'm just glad we still have an activity that fosters music and creativity and personal growth, and a site that looks to celebrate that the best it can.