I was wondering if anyone possibly had a scoring breakdown from finals and prelims....I didnt see it in any earlier posts...might have missed it though...thanks
The addition of 4 or 5 boys to the group is not what puts them over the edge as one of Minnesota's best JV groups, it's the relentless hard work, positive attitudes, and never ending dedication to the sport.
I wasn't saying it was the only reason they won. They are good-REALLY good. Waconia has always been a force to reckon with. But you have to consider that when you add voices that are more mature and developed as well as performers with more experience and skill in choreography, that makes a group better overall. I think the issue will become whether it should be allowed or not. Some states don't allow it now, because it gives an unfair advantage to the group who has cross-over performers, and a disadvantage to groups that have true "prep" performers. Some competitions say it's ok to have cross-over performers. It doesn't make it right or wrong, but it does give an advantage to the prep group that has even a handful of varsity people supporting it.
Thank you for clearing up the "only reason they won" section of what was assumed to be your argument. I'll be honest, I assumed that was what you were trying to say and it stung an awful lot.
I will agree that adding even one varsity-level performer to a non-varsity group would be advantageous, however the advantage is slight and should not be used to discredit the never ending flood of hard work that the "true 'prep' performers" put into their show. I don't think it's right to make the kids who are labeled as "true 'prep' performers," despite the fact that most of The Current's would be varsity-level at many schools, compete against full-blown varsity groups. They work all year long to compete against their fellow JV groups with the hopes of being recognized as one of the best, and often are not informed that they will be forced to compete in the Varsity division until the week before a competition (last year at Totino and Hastings.)
The addition of 4 or 5 boys to the group is not what puts them over the edge as one of Minnesota's best JV groups, it's the relentless hard work, positive attitudes, and never ending dedication to the sport.
Both points that have been raised against my arguments are fair, and I respect them. However, the reason I said what I said is because there was a parent who said the only reason The Current performs as well as they do is to the credit of the members of the group who also participate in Power Company, and I wanted to be reassuring that this is not the case. Although the Varsity members may or may not contribute positively to the group's success (a point that I refuse to argue on this forum,) it is not solely the members who perform with both groups who make The Current the great group that they are.
I wasn't saying it was the only reason they won. They are good-REALLY good. Waconia has always been a force to reckon with. But you have to consider that when you add voices that are more mature and developed as well as performers with more experience and skill in choreography, that makes a group better overall. I think the issue will become whether it should be allowed or not. Some states don't allow it now, because it gives an unfair advantage to the group who has cross-over performers, and a disadvantage to groups that have true "prep" performers. Some competitions say it's ok to have cross-over performers. It doesn't make it right or wrong, but it does give an advantage to the prep group that has even a handful of varsity people supporting it.
I believe in Iowa it's against the rules, but that may be a state mandated thing? I don't know.
I have also heard the arguement made that its ok to have crossover kids if its a single gender group (ex:mundelein girls). Which doesn't make sense to me why one is ok above another.
In Iowa the rule (mandated by the state music association) USED to say groups that used crossovers would be disqualified from competition, or else the competition would be unsanctioned (death panel). The rule has since been changed that if it is with a single gender group that is ok. I think that is the case because of other state's groups. Certainly in Iowa the number of girls groups is FAR less than in other states, and usually those groups are the lowest level at a school. They are usually not competitive with other prep groups in Iowa, and that may be why single gender is allowed and not prep. Obviously in other states like Illinois and Indiana single gender groups are really the 2nd varsity group at the school, and they almost all use crossovers. I see the need to do that in order to be competitive.
I was never in our prep group, so I'm fairly indifferent on the issue, but I know some people in Linn-Mar's prep took issue with Mundelein sharing performers at Fort last year (I personally didn't). I can see why people would find it unfair to compete against groups that have crossovers, and I can also see why it makes no difference whatsoever. Again I kind of think this should be a competition-by-competition rule.
I wholeheartedly agree with Cecelia. It's so wonderful that we can discuss issues like this civilly, without attacking each other. We certainly all understand the joy of performing, otherwise we would not be here. I know if I could've been in multiple show choirs, I probably would've (although 3 choirs, show choir, orchestra, and theatre was plenty lol). I know I personally am not bashing Waconia, as I always enjoy watching Power Company and The Current perform, and I apologize if my remarks gave that feeling. This isn't the first time this topic has been brought up, and I'm sure it won't be the last
Just to be clear, I believe there are only 4 or 5 boys who are crossover kids, and if i recall none of them were asked to be in both, they asked if they could.
This topic has been raised many times before, and there are other groups who do or have used crossover kids, ie: Mundelein girls group, and Totino Grace's boys group. Those just come to mind, there may be others who do it as well. I guess it's up to the director's discretion and the directors of each competition whether they allow crossover kids to be in both. I believe in Iowa it's against the rules, but that may be a state mandated thing? I don't know.
I have also heard the arguement made that its ok to have crossover kids if its a single gender group (ex:mundelein girls). Which doesn't make sense to me why one is ok above another.
Thanks Kevin
It's a conversation that will happen and there's not right or wrong answer in my opinion, just different views on it.
That's because they have people from their varsity group who also participate in the prep group. Not all competitions allow that, but in certain states, it's ok.
Just to be clear, I believe there are only 4 or 5 boys who are crossover kids, and if i recall none of them were asked to be in both, they asked if they could.
This topic has been raised many times before, and there are other groups who do or have used crossover kids, ie: Mundelein girls group, and Totino Grace's boys group. Those just come to mind, there may be others who do it as well. I guess it's up to the director's discretion and the directors of each competition whether they allow crossover kids to be in both. I believe in Iowa it's against the rules, but that may be a state mandated thing? I don't know.
I have also heard the arguement made that its ok to have crossover kids if its a single gender group (ex:mundelein girls). Which doesn't make sense to me why one is ok above another.
You got it bro! There's gonna be a ton of Po Co alum there. We should definitely all sit together.
if i make it to eau claire (still working on that whole needing a ride thing) we are def having an alum section. it'll be fun. and we can laugh. and smile. and reminisce.
also, on the whole crossover thing, max described it perfectly and quite eloquently. i totally understand how it seems from an outsiders perspective, but from being in the choir program in waconia, i not only understand it but respect it.
the current is a great group because of their outstanding work ethic and their love of performing. kevin leads an incredible group of young people. they aren't a great group because of crossovers, or because of size, they are a great group because they work hard! while i understand the argument that varsity members CAN change a group, i feel as though i must reiterate maxwell when i say kevin doesn't ask senior all-star dance captain's to be in the group, these crossovers choose to be in the group so they can enhance their skills so they can do better to entertain you. it is for their education and benefit. they love performing, so much.
i totally get it, the drive to perform more than asked. while i was not a literal crossover in the performer sense, i was crew for current for 3 years. performing is more valuable than trophies, than hearing your name called last. the feeling of leaving it all on the stage, the feeling that you made someone feel something! a beautiful harmony! nothing is more valuable than that, as a performer. that is a message that is felt throughout the choir program in waconia.
i love the world of show choir because there are so many differing opinons and we can speak about them in a civilized manner, educating one another on our views. please take mine with a grain of salt and an open mind. we've all had different experiences in this world of sequins and hairspray, this is just my take.
congrats to everyone who performed at OWCOE! i'm sure you did fabulously.
I remember watching David P. of Waconia grow into one of the best performers I've ever seen by being a crossover. He gets to do the thing he loves most twice as much! You can tell when he's on stage that it's his absolute favorite thing to do. You could say the same thing for nearly every performer who has been a crossover, starting, of course, with the original Crossover King, Dylan. I would never stop anyone from taking opportunities to perform, especially when it's their passion.
Max, this made my day. Can we please watch shows together at Eau Claire? Sounds like a plan.
Both points that have been raised against my arguments are fair, and I respect them. However, the reason I said what I said is because there was a parent who said the only reason The Current performs as well as they do is to the credit of the members of the group who also participate in Power Company, and I wanted to be reassuring that this is not the case. Although the Varsity members may or may not contribute positively to the group's success (a point that I refuse to argue on this forum,) it is not solely the members who perform with both groups who make The Current the great group that they are.
I agree. It's not a practice that I agree with but you can't really argue against director's doing it because your opinion is not going to change. I know Grand Island NW shares some members because freshmen at the school have to be in a music course and Bella Voce (the prep group) meets that requirement. Some people will take that class who also made !4 Karat Gold (Varsity group). I agree with Jay that even 2-3 varsity members in a prep group can make a HUGE difference. Attitude and work ethic are contagious and those members set a tone that makes the whole group better. It's why groups with more seniors tend to be better. An older student knows what it takes to be great, regardless of what group they are performing/practicing with at the time.
First of all, you are extremely lucky to have show choir as a class and not just an extracurricular activity!!
Now getting back on topic,
The Current shares only boys this year, for a few different reasons.
Freshman members of Power Company used to be asked to be in both The Current and Po Co not just for support in The Current, but to help the performers grow. Often enough, freshman boys are not quite where they need to be in order to make a varsity level group. Putting them in both groups helps them develop their performing skills quickly, bringing them up to speed with the other varsity boys. Some freshman do not cross over simply by personal choice. (Instead of being a singer/dancer in both, I got to drum for The Current! Escaped the system, nbd.)
Other crossover members do so by choice. If you asked these boys why they are in both, I guarantee you their answers would be along the lines of "Because I love show choir!!!!" And don't we all? I remember watching David P. of Waconia grow into one of the best performers I've ever seen by being a crossover. He gets to do the thing he loves most twice as much! You can tell when he's on stage that it's his absolute favorite thing to do. You could say the same thing for nearly every performer who has been a crossover, starting, of course, with the original Crossover King, Dylan. I would never stop anyone from taking opportunities to perform, especially when it's their passion.
On a competitive note, The Current's director Kevin Barnard certainly does not approach Power Company's senior all-star dance captain and say "You! We need you to perform in The Current!" Instead, they allow the freshman performers who develop their skills to continue as members of both groups by choice, who often grow up to be the senior all-star members of Power Company.
So instead of bashing The Current and Power Company for letting their members crossover, we should celebrate it! It has allowed these FEW boys to develop their performing skills, grow as leaders, and leave an impact on the show choir world.
I heard Muscatine did it back in 2010. Oh wait, I picked it for them. :-p
Hey Jordan Johnson... who did the ballad the best!?!?!
I'm extremely biased but I would say hands down ATSC performed it best. That is not a put down to either of the other groups and I enjoyed different parts of both groups versions. ATSC's arrangement was much better than the other two versions and that is a HUGE tip of the hat to Anita Cracauer. I much prefer the way ATSC handled the opening part of the song with one solo and the choir doing the background part. Eli does a great job selling the song. As Silva pointed out, ATSC was much more emotional with their version and really sold their belief in the message of the song (which is ABSOLUTELY perfect for every show choir) and you can feel that in the audience. ATSC might not have given their best performance on Saturday night which happens a lot when you are a host group but I believe 100% that it has to be one of the top 5 ballads of the year.
I'll get off my soap box now. Hope I didn't hurt anyone's feeling but I've never been so passionate about one song ever. And that includes ones I performed. Oops
Huge props to Adam for finding this song a few years ago. It is absolutely beautiful and all three arrangements I heard/saw on Saturday showed that beauty.
More thoughts on COE as a whole later. Congrats to everyone!
I heard Muscatine did it back in 2010. Oh wait, I picked it for them. :-p
THAT'S where I've heard the song before. I keep hearing it at competitions and I was like "why do I know this song?" And I could sing the up-tempo section at the end. It was weird. This makes so much more sense now.
I understand that is the case. Though I would hardly say taking a 4-year varsity member out of a prep group would have no effect. I know if we had Momentum members in Vivace, it would be a COMPLETELY different group. At Wash we have 3 show choirs (used to be 4) and none of the members share groups. Both are really good and Celebration has been beating varsity groups this year. I understand why groups choose to share members, mostly to prop up male sound, I just feel like it's unnecessary. When Norwell has 20 members in their group (including 7 guys) and they are still beyond outstanding, it shows that you don't need huge numbers to be a successful group.
I agree. It's not a practice that I agree with but you can't really argue against director's doing it because your opinion is not going to change. I know Grand Island NW shares some members because freshmen at the school have to be in a music course and Bella Voce (the prep group) meets that requirement. Some people will take that class who also made !4 Karat Gold (Varsity group). I agree with Jay that even 2-3 varsity members in a prep group can make a HUGE difference. Attitude and work ethic are contagious and those members set a tone that makes the whole group better. It's why groups with more seniors tend to be better. An older student knows what it takes to be great, regardless of what group they are performing/practicing with at the time.
I heard that 3 groups(Waconia, Benton and ATSC) all did the same ballad..........which group did it the best?
While I liked some of the high notes in Waconia's version, ATSC sounded much more balanced and felt like it was perfromed with a lot more emotion in it.
Omaha Westside Competition of Excellence 2012
I couldn't resist I just watched this video in my diction class:
