I just read that, and found it quite commical that he said people "copped out" the musicals. If you compare the shows that we "Nontraditional" show choirs do to the musicals we are portraying, you will see that they aren't copped, but redone. For example, Mayville's Hunchback show is much different (and in my opinion better) than the Disney movie. I went and watched the movie after seeing their performance, and Disney dissapointed me.
Here's a "review" of the Sauk Prairie competition which just appeared in the Isthmus, Madison's alternative weekly newspaper.
Isthmus article
It's a well-written article, except there's a lot of stuff that he gets wrong. I'm not sure where he got the idea that a third of the people in Preble's show choir were named Brittany, when in fact there are only two. It would have been funny if it were true, but it wasn't.
I'm also not sure where he gets the idea that doing musicals as a show choir set is "new." Monona Grove did it in 2001 with Civil War, and Silver Dimension did The Wiz in 2003 and Mamma Mia in 2004. Sauk obviously does it every year.
It's not really fair to say that "they both had their arrangements and choreography spoon-fed to them by the best in the industry." Most of the time the choreographers still come up with different choreography that has no relation to what was done in the musical. Also, Taras Nahirniak did all the arrangements for Civil War and Mamma Mia, and did some of the arrangements for The Wiz.
I'm guessing he must not have even watched Milton at all, otherwise you'd think he'd have talked about "Cookies." Especially since Milton is considered a Madison area school and was the top finishing Madison area school at Sauk.
I'm glad to see show choir getting more attention in the mainstream media. (Actually, Isthmus would probably be amused to be called mainstream...but here I mean "anything that isn't SCC.") I just wish they'd be a little more accurate.
It's quite a compliment to Mr. Schrank that he has built quite a program in Milton. Based off town population and school enrollment, they are considered a small school, but they are one of the leaders in the state.
To get enough boys to try out for two groups is huge for the area Milton's in and how small the school is
Get this: for a couple years, when I was in school, BRODHEAD actually had two mixed groups. Brodhead, enrollment 477.
All I can say is wow!! None of us at sauk ever thought that would happen!! I saw both Milton and Mayville in finals but I couldn't really make a call. And to Badgers54, did you see Mamma Mia? It was ALOT better than when we did it last week at Milton. At least i thought so! But I'm in the band, what can I say................. As far as execs show goes we all love it alot! I do think it's a little out of the box for us but a little variety is good!! I think it has the potential to be very powerful if performed right.
I think Working can be very powerful... as a school musical. It just doesn't work as a show choir show, though.
I did see YTBN do Mamma Mia, and I thought it was great. This is one of the ironic things about Mamma Mia, though. Mamma Mia got bad reviews as a musical because it's essentially a bunch of great show choir songs that were sort of jammed into a musical, rather than writing a story line and coming up with songs to fit the story, the way most musicals are written. As I said up above, I would have loved to see Executive Session do Mamma Mia.
Similarly, people get frustrated by watching Sauk Prairie's shows sometimes because they're musicals that are unnaturally chopped up and forced into a show choir show.
Now, some musicals have enough "good show choir songs" that they work. Fiddler on the Roof, once you guys got the hang of it (back in 2004), was really good. I don't remember seeing Sauk Prairie perform Godspell back in 2002 or 2003, but it's legendary, apparently. Hunchback of Notre Dame was really good, with Mayville. Monona Grove Silver Dimension, back in the good old days when it was a mixed group, did The Wiz, and that worked pretty well too, at least I'd like to think so.
The last two posts do not speak to the education system at Janesville Craig. It's actually a very good school! Come on guys, a little spell check here, a little punctuation there...
It's quite a compliment to Mr. Schrank that he has built quite a program in Milton. Based off town population and school enrollment, they are considered a small school, but they are one of the leaders in the state.
To get enough boys to try out for two groups is huge for the area Milton's in and how small the school is
According to their Wikipedia page (lol), it's 1040, which does sound pretty accurate if my memory serves me correctly. When I attended Milton High School 10 years ago it was right around 950.
All I really have to say on this topic is, to keep your heads up Milton. I really hate getting mixed into controversy. I did see you guys at Viterbo and really liked your guy's show. I was also really impressed with the caliber of execution since yall are from like a two stop light town is what the program said. Like I said before keep your heads up. Last year we (Xavier) almost experienced the same thing. We had won both best vocals and choreo, but only won by one point to Sioux city east ( who had the monster show that I loved haha) so keep goin, use it as motivation. Good luck the rest of the year yall!
I can't answer for Sauk Prairie's competition, but this is another area that varies from competition to competition. How these awards are decided upon also varies.
Best Vocals and Best Choreography are typically the two caption awards given during finals. Sometimes these are based upon composite scores in each area from the judges. Other times, the judging panel simply votes on who should receive them, with the majority winning each. Rarely, the panel must come to a consensus through discussion on who should receive each- this is more often done with the Best Male and Best Female Soloist awards, but over the years, I have seen it done with other captions as well.
Also to add on to that...
Depending on the competition the criteria for the choreography section changes. In some competitions it is all of the "show" elements. In others it is execution, staging, costumes, facial expression. they might not include pace of show, song selection, creativity, some don't have costumes. I mean it really changes from competition to competition.
Don't most competitions in the midwest give "Vocal" and "Show" captions, not "Vocal" and "Choreography?" In Califorina, we call them Best Musicianship and Best Showmanship. <"Show" and/or "Showmanship" being a much broader category than "Choreography," encompassing other show elements, usually the things mentioned in earlier posts like pace, costuming, transitions, etc...> Both of these caption awards are based directly on the points given by the main judges. "Best Choreography" is a separate caption, like Best Costumes, Best Soloist, etc, usually chosen by a separate judge or two, sometimes choir officers, or seniors from the host school.
So... despite the name of the award, did the Best Choreography award given at Sauk Prairie include the other show elements or was it merely choreography (i.e. dance content and/or execution)? If it indeed was just a "dance" award, it's much easier to see how a choir could win that caption and the vocal caption, but be weak in other areas. Can someone clarify?
I can't answer for Sauk Prairie's competition, but this is another area that varies from competition to competition. How these awards are decided upon also varies.
Best Vocals and Best Choreography are typically the two caption awards given during finals. Sometimes these are based upon composite scores in each area from the judges. Other times, the judging panel simply votes on who should receive them, with the majority winning each. Rarely, the panel must come to a consensus through discussion on who should receive each- this is more often done with the Best Male and Best Female Soloist awards, but over the years, I have seen it done with other captions as well.
Don't most competitions in the midwest give "Vocal" and "Show" captions, not "Vocal" and "Choreography?" In Califorina, we call them Best Musicianship and Best Showmanship. <"Show" and/or "Showmanship" being a much broader category than "Choreography," encompassing other show elements, usually the things mentioned in earlier posts like pace, costuming, transitions, etc...> Both of these caption awards are based directly on the points given by the main judges. "Best Choreography" is a separate caption, like Best Costumes, Best Soloist, etc, usually chosen by a separate judge or two, sometimes choir officers, or seniors from the host school.
So... despite the name of the award, did the Best Choreography award given at Sauk Prairie include the other show elements or was it merely choreography (i.e. dance content and/or execution)? If it indeed was just a "dance" award, it's much easier to see how a choir could win that caption and the vocal caption, but be weak in other areas. Can someone clarify?
First of all ana.... I don't think there is anyone more eloquent on this site (certainly not I) so you are a great person to bring up this topic.
My alma mater- CR Washington- does not have an other category, but instead places it into an entire "show" category (i guess that works since it is show choir) which consists of:
A. Accompaniment
B. Ability to communicate
C. Choreography
D. Poise/Appearance
E. Pace of Show
Each category gets 20 points and they all have subsections worth 5 points. For instance the C. Choreography category is broken down into:
1. Successful and smooth movements
2. Difficulty of movements (gestures, dance)
3. Appropriate movements (includes props)
4. Inventiveness
FYI the Combo is 10% of the score which I think is a fair amount of points given the major impact a GREAT or HORRIBLE band can have on the show. I think that the scoresheet used at Mo-Show really breaks down the different aspects of a show and allows judges to think about all the little things we as performers, directors, and crew members think about when putting together a show. I could go more into detail about said scoresheet, but that would be a waste of time.
I also have gotten to take a look at the Great River scoresheet which DOES have an "Other" section. Included in this section are:
Musical Accompaniment
Balance of Choir and Band
Incorporation of band in show
Pace of Show
Show Design
Concept/Innovation of Show
Total Effect of Show
FYI Costuming is a criteria in the Movement/Visual category (otherwise known as Choreography).
One thing I DON'T like about this other section is the weight it has on the scoresheet. Vocals get 90 points, Choreography gets 80 points, and this other category is worth 70 points. Most of the subcategories in this section are redundant... Pace of Show, Show Design, Concept/Innovation, Total Effect.... I mean show design and concept/innovation is close to the same thing.
It just strikes me as odd that show design and total effect of show gets 40 points, while it takes tone quality, diction, intonation, and blend to get 40 points in the vocal section. In my opinion, this really takes away from the objectivity desired by having a scoresheet in the first place. I mean 4, maybe 5, of the subcategories in this other section are completely subjective, unless you look at incorporation of band in show the same as balance with choir, which makes another redundant section. I mean we just don't see Tone Quality, and Vowel Shape, and style of Singing all in the vocal section.
I guess to me it makes sense that this is SHOW CHOIR. half is show, half is choir. In the Mo-Show score sheet that is how the judging is. But if you look at the Great River scoresheet (which is online at greatriveronline.com under the info section) Vocals are 37.5% while the show is 62.5%. I guess I would think that vocals should be more of a staple in the scoresheet. 37.5%... I mean that is a pretty low percentage.
In two weeks many of the same show will be at Locrosse. I wish I could be there to see how that one turns out. could be quite different with many of the same groups. Different judges will see it differently I believe.
I did some rearranging of plans just so I could make it to the La Crosse Logan competition.
Wow Ana! I never realized that judging was not uniform across competitions, I guess I am naive. As a parent of show choir participants who never were in competition, I was excited when Preble's new director decided to take them to competitions. However, I was also hesitant on what it would do to the spirit of the choir. Would they resort to pandering to what they thought the judges wanted, at the expense of performing for the sheer love of it?
I can imagine it is tough to compare so many varied shows, and unless every show choir is to do the same set, there will always be both subjective and objective criteria used. I can only wish that no one ever becomes demoralized by a judges rating and that the joy they have for performing is not diminished.
In reading all of this thread, I think it could be a great catalyst for a discussion of scoresheets, categories, scoring, etc. I suppose I'll start it, but I'm sure there are many more on this site who know more, and are able to explain it more eloquently than I am.
Hopefully some of you will chime in. I know in particular, I'd like to hear from Kevin Douglas, who I believe along with Sherman Charles, created a scoresheet for the SCRS, which may or may not have an Other Category. I know that you and Sherman sent the scoresheet you were working on to a number of people, so you may have particular insight into the general opinion of the "Other" category, or those things typically attributed to it.
First, I think one thing we all need to understand is that most scoresheets are different. Many competitions make their own sheets- most of which do seem to reflect somewhat on what the directors at each program consider important, or at least, worth noting. In fact, there isn't always an other category on a scoresheet. Scoresheets that DO have an other category are NOT always "costuming, band, etc." When this particular situation happens, or one where the winning group does not win either caption (but those are split between two other show choirs), rare as it is, I've heard the word "costuming" thrown around like it's dirty, and quite frankly, that is not fair- nor is it entirely accurate.
Second, on the subject of the "Other" category. Before we completely discount it as being worthy of having some importance and influence in final results, let's discuss what could be/ should be included, and WHY those things would be included on a scoresheet (ie. why they matter). In looking at the scoresheets for the competitions we attended last weekend and are attending next weekend, these are included in the "Other":
Musical Accompaniment
Instrument and Balance
Transition Between #s
Pace of Show
Total Effect of Show
I don't have the preliminary scoresheets from our first competition with me, but in the finals scoring breakdown, there is no "Other" category. They may use a simplified scoresheet for finals, or at least don't detail the finals scoring breakdown, but for reference... Included in the "Show" caption are the following:
Pace of Show
Poise and Appearance
Ability to Communicate
Staging
Choreography Execution
Included in the "Vocal Caption":
Rhythmic Precision
Diction
Interpretation
Vocal Blend and Balance
Intonation
Tone Quality
There was an additional ten point Accompaniment category that was added to the Vocal Caption to create the Vocal Total.
I would love to hear what other competition scoresheets include in their other category, if they have one. For reference, in both competitions' sheets for this past weekend and next, "Costuming and Appearance" is included in the movement category.
Third, I think it hasn't come up at all here... isn't it entirely plausible that the group that won was a close second in both categories, and made up the point differences elsewhere? Is that really so bad? Doesn't it then just become an issue of whether or not you agree with the scoring system as a whole? People are saying the results just feel "wrong", but I'd like to see more explanations as to why it is wrong, and how it SHOULD be. From what I've seen, no one has even explained with authority, what the scoring system at Sauk is.
I will say, I think it's interesting how the discussion here is simultaneously about how a group should not be able to win Best Vocals and Best Choreography, but lose because of aspects of their show outside their control (ex: costuming)... but also saying that it's unfair that groups with shows like that of Sauk or Mayville should even be able to compete with more traditional groups. When it comes down to it, the reason people use for wanting to separate those two groups and groups like them from the rest of us, is also about an aspect outside the students' control. Regardless of style of show, those groups DO sing and dance, right? Aren't those two aspects the things we're also arguing are the only two things that should MATTER? Maybe a simplification, but still.
Lastly, to proactively address the arguments some have about students being "punished" by scoresheets/ judges for the following reasons over which they have little or no control:
1. Costumes*: as in outfit/ color/ fabric/ design/ quality/ number of choices, fit, appropriateness- both in relation to the song selections being performed and in relation to what is considered "decent" for high school students to wear for a school-sponsored event.
*I'd also note that costume categories often are the place for judges to make note of the success rate of costume changes- meaning, do all students make the change successfully, or are there students coming on stage late, with their pants around their ankles, and their ties wrapped around their head like a headband? Are the girls' dresses stuck just below their bras? Did the tear-away costumes completely fail to tear-away, rendering several students useless as they untangle themselves from the layers of polyester?
2. Show: as in song choices, design of show, addition of props, backdrops, added staging, etc.
3. Money: as in having or not having it, and having or not having the appearance of expensive costumes or shows. I won't discuss money any further unless it comes up in further discussions, but I will say I think it's a BS card to play.
No, those things are not controlled by students. However, neither is the actual choreography each group has, the arrangements each group sings, the style of vocals taught by each director, the number of students put in each group, the amount of rehearsal time each group has...even the way a group interprets their show facially and physically may not be up to them.
I think that what is most highly lauded in our artform is a show or show choir whose singing and dancing is brought together most harmoniously and effectively with the first two aspects. That is my personal opinion, but I think it's backed up pretty well by the results each year. Consider the groups most often talked about on this website. Tell me that groups like Burbank, John Burroughs, Findlay, Waubonsie Valley, Wheaton Warrenville, Fairfield, Hastings, Center Grove, etc. don't sing and dance incredibly well IN shows that clearly demonstrate great leadership through their design, costuming, staging, etc.
If I decide to have my prep group transition between songs by running to their next spot like they're on fire and in severe pain, then close their show by singing "Oh Happy Day" as a syncopated dirge with no hard consonants, fake british accents, and the tone quality of a 2nd grade choir, and I insist that the altos be the most heard section, and demand that each singer perform it with an angry face, accompanied only by a flute and french horn, thus rendering it impossible to understand aurally and aesthetically, and that's what they do, is it their fault? No, it's mine because I'm weird or crazy or whatever. Do the judges realize this? OF COURSE.
But you can bet that the number will affect MANY areas of our scoresheets, not just the stuff that only I clearly control. Yes, that's a ridiculous example, because for the most part, directors aren't quite THAT insane... but think about all those factors I mentioned- how many are innate to singer/ dancers? How many are at least somewhat guided or dictated by the directors/ choreographers? If that is really what I tell my kids to do, and they do it with 100% commitment, then where does that leave them? And for that matter, where does it leave judges? Ideally, yes, they should focus on what the kids do- but I mean, what I told them to do is WRONG!!!! It really muddies up the argument that the groups that are most successful should be the groups who "sing" and "dance" the best- it may not be that simple. If that is how I tell my kids to sing, and they do it perfectly; and that's how I tell my kids to dance, and they do it cleanly and with full commitment, energy, and passion... then what?
The reality is, at least to me, most areas of the scoresheet are affected by decisions made by the people in charge. In the final results, sometimes this helps a group, sometimes it can hurt it. I think the question is, does it make the results less legit? Can we really separate the "Best Vocals" and "Best Choreography" so thoroughly from the "other" stuff? I guess I don't think so... but I'd love to hear other thoughts and opinions. Let's old-school SCC this, and actually TALK about it
Sauk Prairie Executive Session Invitational 2010
