To celebrate, I have some fantastic goodies coming soon - including footage from FAME that I really think is going to blow you away. For those who have had trouble accessing the website lately due to "out of memory" errors, it's because the site has become so popular this season that we're literally taxing the servers beyond their limits!
I disagree. Show choir has been evolving for over 30 years, and the wonder of it is that it continues to grow and innovate. I imagine that someone, somewhere, might have asked the question, "does Led Zepellin belong in show choir?" Does Muse? Does concert choral music belong? None of them were there when show choir ("swing choir") first evolved, but now they're commonplace.
NC isn't the first group to put a rap piece in their set, and though it wasn't my favorite part of their very powerful set, it should be judged on its own merits. Many show choir numbers have very simple or almost nonexistent singing. So judge the dancing and the overall effect, the same way you judge a power ballad for the singing. It's a SHOW, and whatever that means to the creators and performers, all they really need to do is communicate that to us effectively.
4th: North Central - Great energy and amazing opening. However, 20 point deduction for have a rap "music" piece. Why not just scratch your fingernails on a chalk board? Does rap "music" belong in show choir?
I disagree. Show choir has been evolving for over 30 years, and the wonder of it is that it continues to grow and innovate. I imagine that someone, somewhere, might have asked the question, "does Led Zepellin belong in show choir?" Does Muse? Does concert choral music belong? None of them were there when show choir ("swing choir") first evolved, but now they're commonplace.
NC isn't the first group to put a rap piece in their set, and though it wasn't my favorite part of their very powerful set, it should be judged on its own merits. Many show choir numbers have very simple or almost nonexistent singing. So judge the dancing and the overall effect, the same way you judge a power ballad for the singing. It's a SHOW, and whatever that means to the creators and performers, all they really need to do is communicate that to us effectively.
I apologize for my previous post...I didn't realize we'd moved on from that dicussion.
Don't worry too much Haakon, the kids are perfectly willing to sift through 53 pages of text to find the glowing reports about their show! Even these last few pages are littered with great observations and compliments.
Cheers!
Don't apologize! It was great... Just because the Haak is frustrated that we continue to discuss it doesn't mean we all are.
To all show choirs at FAME Chicago...what fantastic and entertaining shows! Everyone was so nice to one another, and although there was a lot of discussion about the scoring, it will not overshadow that fact that we are certainly all family and we support each other no matter what happens! All the shows were "top notch" and every person who performed should be proud of what they accomplished.
A special "shout out" to some of John Burroughs' kids. I am the Attache' mom you talked to in the auditorium. We talked a bit about your trip and our shows. You guys were so nice, and I congratulate y'all on a job well done!
Let me take this oppurtunity to comment on the parents (especially the moms) of Clinton "Attache". I was VERY lucky to have been able to sit in the same area for every performance of FAME Chicago. Right behind me was a large delegation of Clinton parents. Now... we all talk about really sweet parents that we meet from time to time... but not only are these moms the sweetest thing since peach cobbler... but, they are show choir inteligent! They AREN'T biased. They discuss groups, they make good points, they have wonderful positive comments to say and sometimes some very appropriate constructive criticism. I was floored at the way they handled themselves. I've never met parents like them. Props to them! Clinton kids are so lucky to have such a supportive group of loving parental units. After every group, I would always have a discussion with one of the moms. She was so fantastic! I also need to give a shout out to my "Aquarius Mom". We met at the mall in Nashville when I was singing in a womens clothing store asking people if they knew the band (not musical) who sang "Aquarius" (I know, I'm weird, right?) I'll post the picture of us whenever I get home!
Adam, the point issue has been adressed. Over, and over and over again. Why don't you start discussing the shows yourself? I would love to hear more people's opinions about why the scoring was so close.
Thank you Häakon for speaking up for that. I am getting nauseous reading post after post about points. Yes I think it was good to discuss but its getting a little overkill now. Lets hear a little about why we all registered to be members on this site: Show Choir. Not points
No... my point has not been addressed. But good try.
I do not want to start discussing my thoughs on the shows until my question is answered.
It's understandable that the people who weren't there would be obsessed with the scoring. What else do they have to talk about? " border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> For those who were there: How did you personally rank the choirs?
I say:
1st: John Burroughs - Absolutely fantastic. Incredibly creative.
2nd: Clinton - Precise and Flawless.
3rd: Waubonsie Valley - Fabulous sound and hilarious middle portion
4th: North Central - Great energy and amazing opening. However, 20 point deduction for have a rap "music" piece. Why not just scratch your fingernails on a chalk board? Does rap "music" belong in show choir?
Show choir has had it's Woodstock. 20 years from now people will be boasting of being at Fame Chicago 2008!!!
I have to say I had so much fun at this competition. I met so many nice people from all over the place and saw some amazing talent. I'm so glad I got to meet so many awesome SCC people: Häakon, Jay, Chris, David, and many others. This competition certainly made for an amazing weekend.
Burroughs Girls - I have to say you girls were very fun to watch. You ladies had a very pure sound and are just all around fun to watch. Great job on making it to finals ladies!
South Jones - I very much enjoyed your show. I got to prelims that day just in time to see you all perform, and was very happy to see your show again in finals. I definitely enjoyed the girls number.
Waubonsie Valley - OMG! You all have to now be officially one of my favorite groups of all time. You all had so much energy and your character number made me laugh hysterically. I certainly hope to see more of you all in the future! Keep up the AMAZING work!
North Central- As always, I get very excited to see your show. This was the 3rd time seeing your show this season (since I am from Indy after all), and this was definitely by far the most energy you've had all season. You've had a lot of energy before, but this was definitely amazing. You guys always have amazing soloists. Max Pallman's ballad solo always makes me cry. He has such an amazing voice! Great job you guys!
Clinton - I was so excited to finally be able to see you guys live. Your choreography is always so clean and your vocals seemed to have improved a lot from what I've heard since the beginning of the season. Those of you that I met from Attaché were so nice. You certainly did not disappoint.
Burroughs Powerhouse - Wow. That's the only word I can think of to describe it. Your vocals were astounding. Your intensity was incredible. You all certainly had a well-deserved GC. Congrats!
...and this is why Mr. Jennings is also the Academic Decathlon coach at Burroughs.
And, thanks, show choirfilms! We were very close to pulling a 4th runner up! It's so nice to hear that we have "the best sound I've ever heard from a Single-Gender group." Hopefully it will help us at our final competition to...defeat Burbank!
i would have to say that i have been watching cali choirs on youtube since my sophomore year. i cant get over how much i love all of them. but John Burroughs Powerhouse has always and continues to be my favorite group in the country. i couldnt believe that i had the opportunity to finally see them live (not that im graduated and on to college to get my music ed degree). not only that but i got to talk to some of the kids (Leatrice Ben and Michael, who by the way are very very nice!) and met their director and their choreographer as well! i do have to say, my picture with Jen Oundjian is my profile picture on facebook because i was so excited to meet her! hahaha! congrats everyone at this amazing competition!
What a great day of Show Choir I was able to experience in Illinois. It was my girlfriends first time at any competition so she was especially blown away by the talent. I'm waiting on my Finals DVD but some things that stuck out to me about this competition,
Waubonsie Valley- I had never heard of you or seen you as I promised myself I wouldn't youtube any of the groups. I was very impressed by your sound, energy, and show. I absolutely LOVED your opener. As I told your director, WV has a ton of GC's on the way.
South Jones- Like WV I hadn't seen anything from you but, I was really looking forward to seeing you. You definetly didn't dissapoint and your show was very solid. You were such nice people and I wish you tons of luck in the future.
North Central- O' Fortuna was incredible especially in finals. Please don't stop the music was awesome also. After a few minutes of your show I knew that the other groups better be bringing their A game if they want a shot at GC.
JBHS Girls- I have seen some very talented girls groups who have blown me away but, you were the best I have seen. Your acapella was the best sound I've ever heard from a Single-Gender group. I really thought you would pull out 4th RU and a look at the scoresheet shows just how close you were.
Clinton- Hold on/Clocks was a excellent medley and you pulled it off to perfection. Very mature sound and crisp moves. Overall just a very well put together show. You're Grand Champions in every sense of the word.
Burroughs Powerhouse - After a few minutes of your show my girlfriend leaned in and asked me, "are you sure they're a high school group, Or are they some kind of Broadway show that is just doing a performance for everyone. She was astounded by the fact that you were high school students. There was no doubt in my mind that you would win Grand Champion. With all due respect to the other groups I felt that the scores were much closer than they should have been. As someone else said the most visually stunning show I have ever seen. Your sound, choreography, and originality was a treat to watch. Freak on a leash was my personal favorite.
In my opinion it's safe to say that 'Greatest show on Earth' is not just the title of your show but an absolute fact!
Everyone has the need to know the official scoring system after this hot mess... that is why I am inquiring for it. I've heard what it says... and know that FAME isn't sticking to it.
Idiot Savant! That's a new one! I'll add it to my list.
Actually, you forgot the "self proclaimed" part... " border="0" alt="laugh.gif" />
Honestly, that was an unneccesary low blow at a person (who in my opinion is quite smart) and their want to clear up an issue for EVERYBODY.
The only valid point you've made here as that the wonderful performances that occured on Saturday are being largely ignored. I too hope people start discussing the shows... but I still think this scoring matter still needs to be addressed.
Adam, the point issue has been adressed. Over, and over and over again. Why don't you start discussing the shows yourself? I would love to hear more people's opinions about why the scoring was so close.
Thank you Häakon for speaking up for that. I am getting nauseous reading post after post about points. Yes I think it was good to discuss but its getting a little overkill now. Lets hear a little about why we all registered to be members on this site: Show Choir. Not points
To all show choirs at FAME Chicago...what fantastic and entertaining shows! Everyone was so nice to one another, and although there was a lot of discussion about the scoring, it will not overshadow that fact that we are certainly all family and we support each other no matter what happens! All the shows were "top notch" and every person who performed should be proud of what they accomplished.
A special "shout out" to some of John Burroughs' kids. I am the Attache' mom you talked to in the auditorium. We talked a bit about your trip and our shows. You guys were so nice, and I congratulate y'all on a job well done!
Wow! That is literally the first post I've seen from anyone involved with Clinton! Even the parents are top-notch sports and professional. That is why I love Clinton so much!
EDIT: Actually, I think that Mr. Fehr posted in a topic back in 2004, so I lied. Haha
To all show choirs at FAME Chicago...what fantastic and entertaining shows! Everyone was so nice to one another, and although there was a lot of discussion about the scoring, it will not overshadow that fact that we are certainly all family and we support each other no matter what happens! All the shows were "top notch" and every person who performed should be proud of what they accomplished.
A special "shout out" to some of John Burroughs' kids. I am the Attache' mom you talked to in the auditorium. We talked a bit about your trip and our shows. You guys were so nice, and I congratulate y'all on a job well done!
I probably speak for Brendan and Haakon when I say we'd be glad to respond further on the scoring issue through non-public lines, so this thread can get back to its original subject.
Very well stated, Brendan, and Haakon as well. After processing your two posts in my mental blender on the puree setting and tasting the resultant soup, I'm going to sprinkle in these grains of salt:
For those of you die-hards who are still going to protest that a 17.9998 should never be considered a tie with an 18.0001, please remember that FAME NEVER planned on having the raw scores determine the outcomes. They intended the ordinal system to be used, and if in their estimation two raw scores are so close (a FRACTION of a TENTH of a point) that they should be considered a tie for the purposes of processing ordinals, that's reasonable, because, again, they INTENDED the ordinal system to trump the raw scores occasionally.
I'm not saying that the system is the MOST reasonable (don't know if anyone really could), but the two previous posts have it right: The system Fame chose, of processing of raw scores to produce ordinals, was applied consistently, and I believe it was A fair system.
And yes, wow, what a competition and what amazing performances.
I apologize for my previous post...I didn't realize we'd moved on from that dicussion.
Don't worry too much Haakon, the kids are perfectly willing to sift through 53 pages of text to find the glowing reports about their show! Even these last few pages are littered with great observations and compliments.
Let me preface this post by saying that there were simply AMAZING moments in show choir that happened at this competition. Today, I showed parts of the finals DVD to all 4 of my choirs. To have my younger students see North Central's "Flying Home", Clinton's "Hold On/Clocks" and Waubonsie's "Listen"...was truly educational. I have so much respect for the other directors and what they've accomplished. To all the students who performed...BRAVO!
Dan Scoville (the Burroughs assistant musical director) and I totally re-calculated and analyzed the scores from the competition. I see where some of the confusion and upset is around the explanation of the outcomes, however, FAME is calculating the scores in the uniform way in which they intended. This is the only fair way to do things, regardless of who the result favors or what inconsistencies in the method exists.
I am clearly not an appointed authority on their scoring system, however, my math geekness combined with my show choir geekness has made this a fun area of study. Let's just say I have a good handle on it. I would like to state a few of my thoughts. Sorry if I futher confuse things...
The "point total" column on the summary sheet refers to the "percentage points" (per Fame's description) possible. Since this is a number out of 110, it does not strike me as a percentage at all, though it is a fun thought that you can get up to 110%. Although they do not add the numbers for you, the true point totals CAN be calculated. For instance Powerhouse received 842.5 out of 900 possible points. The next highest group had a 826.5 (16 point difference...which translates into 1.9 "percentage" points).
Another key point of understanding for me was how the "vocal total", "visual total", "show total" and "ensemble total" numbers are calculated. This is all layed out in the director's book for the preliminary scoring. Although they then add ranks for the finals, they still get their "percentage" points the same way. The best way to describe is this. There are 40 "percentage" points possible in vocals. Those points are divided equally over all the judges, in this case six. So each judge's points in vocals will translate into a possible 6 2/3 points. So, Powerhouse's 49/50 in vocals from Drinkall (98%) translates into 6.5 "percentage" points (98% of the 6 2/3 possible points). Granted, it is 6.533, but you round it down to 6.5 (we'll talk about rounding in a minute).
Now, each category is worth a different number of "percentage" points and is also being reduced from a different number of true points. 50pts (from each judge) becomes 40 total in vocals. 40pts (from each judge) becomes 30 in visuals. 30 to 20 in show, 20 to 10 in instrumental and 10 to 10 in overall. These ratios are obviously not the same: 5/4, 4/3, 3/2, 2/1, 1/1. This difference causes there to be a slight weighting of points. An Overall point is worth more than a vocal point, which in turn is worth more than a visual point and so on. The difference is slight, but it can AND DOES make a difference.
For instance, take the scores from Heath Weber for Waubonsie Valley and North Central. Numerically, they both received 139 out of 150. However, due to the fact that the "overall" category (where Waubonsie had 1 more point) is weighted more heavily than the "instrumental" category (where NC had 1 more point), they end up with percentages of 17.0 (Waubonsie) and 16.9 (North Central).
Now, some people have noticed that Fame has chosen to round their totals in each category (to one decimel) BEFORE they add them up. While I do not necessarily agree with this, it is what Fame intended to do for this competition so they have no choice but to do it. IF, in the situation above, you don't round until AFTER you add the numbers up, both groups would have received a 17.0. Before you jump up and shout that it was another example of their system not working, consider not rounding at all. In that case, Waubonsie would have had 17.036 and NC would have had 16.953....yes, that's right, from numerically equal scores. I believe if you are going to use ranks to decide competitions, than you really have to avoid ties in those ranks. In this case, the ranks that were assigned were correct.
Of course, you can debate these numbers all you want. You could say they should round differently, use different weightings, use different rules for resolving ties in ranks...it goes on and on. The fact is that Fame set out with a particular set of guidelines that they followed 100% to give them a result. Once the competition has begun the only fair thing to do is stick to that, which Fame clearly did. The scoring in the prelims (and every other Fame I've been to) supports this.
That's pretty much exactly how I feel... and it's a real shame that there are still people who are way too uptight over the points and not focused on these kids and groups who put their heart and souls into their performances.
Furthermore, the scores that FAME posted are legit, and while some may disagree with the avenue the company took to arrive at them, it doesn't change what is. Let's pick this apart for the final time, shall we?
As Armando was kind enough to take the time to explain, the scores in each category are standardized. Go back and read his post if you would like information on the math of how this works. In your first example, Drinkall's scores for Burroughs came out to a standardized average of 6.53268. His scores for Waubonsie were 6.46602. All scores are rounded to one decimal place. Thus, both become 6.5. There are no inconsistencies or errors here.
In your second example, Chapman's vocal scores for Burroughs standardized to 6.06606, while Weber's vocal scores for Waubonsie totaled 6.13272. Again, both are rounded to one decimal place making them both 6.1 overall. There are no inconsistencies or errors here.
If you do not like the way that FAME adds up their numbers or believe you have a better way of scoring a competition, you may feel free to use this address to send them correspondence:
FAME Events
7255 E. Hampton Ave. Suite 127
Mesa, AZ 85209
Otherwise, I would appreciate if we could focus on the students and the music which made this contest a vibrant success for high school show choir across the nation. I have never seen such great talent in one place before and I feel sorry for the participants who gave the best performances of their lives and are not only getting completely overlooked but have to drudge through pages of these kinds of posts.
The only valid point you've made here as that the wonderful performances that occured on Saturday are being largely ignored. I too hope people start discussing the shows... but I still think this scoring matter still needs to be addressed.
Really, this scoring controversy shows us two things:
1) The panel, as a whole, thought that Clinton, North Central, and Waubonsie Valley were basically equal.
2) The panel, as a whole, thought that Burroughs was the best group at the competition.
Can't we just leave it at that?
That's pretty much exactly how I feel... and it's a real shame that there are still people who are way too uptight over the points and not focused on these kids and groups who put their heart and souls into their performances.
Furthermore, the scores that FAME posted are legit, and while some may disagree with the avenue the company took to arrive at them, it doesn't change what is. Let's pick this apart for the final time, shall we?
As Armando was kind enough to take the time to explain, the scores in each category are standardized. Go back and read his post if you would like information on the math of how this works. In your first example, Drinkall's scores for Burroughs came out to a standardized average of 6.53268. His scores for Waubonsie were 6.46602. All scores are rounded to one decimal place. Thus, both become 6.5. There are no inconsistencies or errors here.
In your second example, Chapman's vocal scores for Burroughs standardized to 6.06606, while Weber's vocal scores for Waubonsie totaled 6.13272. Again, both are rounded to one decimal place making them both 6.1 overall. There are no inconsistencies or errors here.
If you do not like the way that FAME adds up their numbers or believe you have a better way of scoring a competition, you may feel free to use this address to send them correspondence:
FAME Events
7255 E. Hampton Ave. Suite 127
Mesa, AZ 85209
Otherwise, I would appreciate if we could focus on the students and the music which made this contest a vibrant success for high school show choir across the nation. I have never seen such great talent in one place before and I feel sorry for the participants who gave the best performances of their lives and are not only getting completely overlooked but have to drudge through pages of these kinds of posts.
FAME Chicago 2008
" border="0" alt="laugh.gif" /> For those who were there: How did you personally rank the choirs?
