QUOTE(Cody Mac @ Mar 31 2008, 01:06 PM) [snapback]431312[/snapback]
You're very close on all this, but still a little bit off.
Ranking scores were calculated by adding up all of a group's judge-given ranks (pulled from original scores). Though Burroughs had a higher score than Clinton, an error was made when entering ranks into their system. By that, I mean that, despite the lower score, "Attaché" was given a false 1st place rank, and Burroughs was given a false 2nd place rank. Had it been entered correctly, it would've increased Clinton's rank score by 1, immediately removing the tie in place with North Central, and giving North Central 2nd place without a tie-breaker.
Also, with the ranking system, Waubonsie and NC were not tied. North Central had the lower ranking score.
Here's what I mean.
Below you will see that there is a tie between NC and "Attaché", but only because of the tabulation error.
The ranks as they read on the original scoresheet were as follows:
Group - 6 Judges Ranks (Rank Total) Clinton- 4,1,2,4,2,3 (16)
North Central- 1,4,4,2,4,1 (16)
Burroughs- 2,2,1,1,1,2 (9)
Waubonsie Valley- 3,3,3,3,3,4 (19)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, same ranks, with the corrected Attache/Burroughs ranks.
Group - 6 Judges Ranks (Rank Total) Clinton- 4,2,2,4,2,3 (17)
North Central- 1,4,4,2,4,1 (16)
Burroughs- 2,1,1,1,1,2 (8)
Waubonsie Valley- 3,3,3,3,3,4 (19)
With that said, if FAME had used this ranking system that they said they'd used, the results would have been:
GC: Burroughs
1RU: North Central
2RU: Clinton
3RU: Waubonsie Valley
and so on.
Where you run into the issue with WV and North Central being mixed up is when you say that raw scores were used to determine placing (which, judging from what was said earlier, is FAME's story to this point, saying they switched to this method instead of using their original ranking system).
If they actually had used the raw scores to determine placements, the results would have been as follows:
GC: Burroughs
1RU: Clinton
2RU: Waubonsie Valley
3RU: North Central
Unfortunately, with either path FAME takes, two groups actually placed differently than what was called out on Saturday night. It's just going to come down to what FAME believes is the best, most fair way to go.
Just be thankful this mix up didn't actually affect the over all GC. Can you imagine the uproar if that had happened? So in that regard, I'm glad Burroughs won more or less outright!
I gotta recoup from the weekend before I post my armchair thoughts on the whole evening. I must say this much though - I felt it definitely lived up to the hype! And how often does that happen?
The funniest thing about this topic is hearing about people's predictions that were not at the competition. There was NO WAY to predict who would place where after either round. The shows were all so different from one another. And everyone performed EXTREMELY well. This was such a fantastic competition. YAY!!!!! Things I am now in love with after this competition:
Waubonsie Valley's show..... AMAZING!!! One of my favorite shows of all-time!!! Everything was just GREAT!
North Central's female ballad soloist!!!
Clinton's costumes. The bodicework on the opening dresses was stunning. And I LOVED the trio's dresses in the girls song.
South Jones' closer. The costumes were beautiful. The band rocked. The choreography was exciting. I loved this song.
Burroughs closer. There was this girl that I could not stop watching in the closer. I found her after the performance and took a picture with her. The choreo in this song was the best choreo Burroughs had.
Burroughs' girls ballad was BEAUTIFUL!!!! Some of the best female vocals I have ever heard and definitely best vocals for a Single-Gender group.
This is a real shame.
With the focus this competition had, not to mention the tens of thousands of dollars spent by choirs to attend, FAME really needs to address this; give the facts of what happened, announce what the actual and official results are, as well as explain what's being done to assure this doesn't happen again.
QUOTE(lghtmycandle16 @ Mar 31 2008, 12:14 PM) [snapback]431313[/snapback]
lol if i was planing a big trip i think the last place i would want to visit is IOWA.
but i'm a native. haha
Why not, Iowa? Hart, CA came to Sullivan, IL... and let me tell you... Sullivan is a bit more far removed than Davenport is. Big name/Big City groups come to small high school competitions increasingly. Burbank traveled to Franklin Central a few years back. Why not Burroughs, Clinton, Waubonsie Valley, and North Central in Iowa? Clinton has made the trip to Iowa before. It was their first time competing here. My motto is and always has been... first the worst, second the best.
QUOTE(Jorge @ Mar 31 2008, 11:58 AM) [snapback]431310[/snapback]
Just a little shameless plug-
This kind of stuff doesn't happen at Davenport West and Central's "Great River" competition on February 21st, 2009! John Burroughs, Clinton, North Central, and Waubonsie Valley should just all attend that one!
lol if i was planing a big trip i think the last place i would want to visit is IOWA.
QUOTE(Jorge @ Mar 31 2008, 11:06 AM) [snapback]431298[/snapback]
I am posting this again... because it's updated-
Here are the answers... and the beginning to new questions...
Indeed... John Burroughs had four 1st place votes and North Central had two 1st place votes. Clinton did not receive any, even though it said they had received one. It was a mistake.
In FAME's manual... it states that in finals, they will use rank scoring with the majority rules clause... unless a tie in ranks occurs... it will then be broken with raw scores.
Here are the raw scores-
OVERALL-
John Burroughs- 102.9
Clinton- 100.8
Waubonsie Valley- 98.9
North Central- 98.8
South Jones- 91.9
John Burroughs- 91.5
The real question is this...
In ranks...
Clinton was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which was broken by the points... placing Clinton safely "2nd".
Here is where discrepancy lies...
Waubonsie Valley was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which WAS NOT broken by the points... placing Waubonsie Valley in fourth... when by the rules that FAME states, and used in the instance of Clinton/North Central... would have had them in third...
So...
The actual outcome of this competition, had FAME been consistent with their scoring methods-
Grand Champions- John Burroughs
1st Runner Up- Clinton 2nd Runner Up- Waubonsie Valley
3rd Runner Up- North Central
4th Runner Up- South Jones
5th Runner Up- John Burroughs (girls)
The question now is...
Why didn't FAME do what they said they would do in an event of a tie for Waubonsie Valley / North Central? But they did do it for Clinton / North Central?
You're very close on all this, but still a little bit off.
Ranking scores were calculated by adding up all of a group's judge-given ranks (pulled from original scores). Though Burroughs had a higher score than Clinton, an error was made when entering ranks into their system. By that, I mean that, despite the lower score, "Attaché" was given a false 1st place rank, and Burroughs was given a false 2nd place rank. Had it been entered correctly, it would've increased Clinton's rank score by 1, immediately removing the tie in place with North Central, and giving North Central 2nd place without a tie-breaker.
Also, with the ranking system, Waubonsie and NC were not tied. North Central had the lower ranking score.
Here's what I mean.
Below you will see that there is a tie between NC and "Attaché", but only because of the tabulation error.
The ranks as they read on the original scoresheet were as follows:
Group - 6 Judges Ranks (Rank Total) Clinton- 4,1,2,4,2,3 (16)
North Central- 1,4,4,2,4,1 (16)
Burroughs- 2,2,1,1,1,2 (9)
Waubonsie Valley- 3,3,3,3,3,4 (19)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, same ranks, with the corrected Attache/Burroughs ranks.
Group - 6 Judges Ranks (Rank Total) Clinton- 4,2,2,4,2,3 (17)
North Central- 1,4,4,2,4,1 (16)
Burroughs- 2,1,1,1,1,2 (8)
Waubonsie Valley- 3,3,3,3,3,4 (19)
With that said, if FAME had used this ranking system that they said they'd used, the results would have been:
GC: Burroughs
1RU: North Central
2RU: Clinton
3RU: Waubonsie Valley
and so on.
Where you run into the issue with WV and North Central being mixed up is when you say that raw scores were used to determine placing (which, judging from what was said earlier, is FAME's story to this point, saying they switched to this method instead of using their original ranking system).
If they actually had used the raw scores to determine placements, the results would have been as follows:
GC: Burroughs
1RU: Clinton
2RU: Waubonsie Valley
3RU: North Central
Unfortunately, with either path FAME takes, two groups actually placed differently than what was called out on Saturday night. It's just going to come down to what FAME believes is the best, most fair way to go.
QUOTE(Jorge @ Mar 31 2008, 12:06 PM) [snapback]431298[/snapback]
I am posting this again... because it's updated-
Here are the answers... and the beginning to new questions...
Indeed... John Burroughs had four 1st place votes and North Central had two 1st place votes. Clinton did not receive any, even though it said they had received one. It was a mistake.
In FAME's manual... it states that in finals, they will use rank scoring with the majority rules clause... unless a tie in ranks occurs... it will then be broken with raw scores.
Here are the raw scores-
OVERALL-
John Burroughs- 102.9
Clinton- 100.8
Waubonsie Valley- 98.9
North Central- 98.8
South Jones- 91.9
John Burroughs- 91.5
The real question is this...
In ranks...
Clinton was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which was broken by the points... placing Clinton safely "2nd".
Here is where discrepancy lies...
Waubonsie Valley was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which WAS NOT broken by the points... placing Waubonsie Valley in fourth... when by the rules that FAME states, and used in the instance of Clinton/North Central... would have had them in third...
So...
The actual outcome of this competition, had FAME been consistent with their scoring methods-
Grand Champions- John Burroughs
1st Runner Up- Clinton 2nd Runner Up- Waubonsie Valley
3rd Runner Up- North Central
4th Runner Up- South Jones
5th Runner Up- John Burroughs (girls)
The question now is...
Why didn't FAME do what they said they would do in an event of a tie for Waubonsie Valley / North Central? But they did do it for Clinton / North Central?
It does seem like an over-sight... I'm not implying that FAME was out to get Waubonsie Valley... or favored North Central.
JUDGES- Judith Ranaletta:
1st- North Central
2nd- John Burroughs
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- Clinton
Andrew Drinkall: 1st- John Burroughs
2nd- Clinton
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- North Central
Heath Weber: 1st- John Burroughs
2nd- Clinton
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- North Central
Marty DeMott:
1st- John Burroughs
2nd- North Central
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- Clinton
Damon Brown-
1st- North Central
2nd- John Burroughs
3rd- Clinton
4th- Waubonsie Valley
Anne Chapman-
1st- John Burroughs
2nd- Clinton
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- North Central
So-
John Burroughs- 111122
Clinton- 222344
North Central- 112444
Waubonsie Valley- 333334
This kind of stuff doesn't happen at Davenport West and Central's "Great River" competition on February 21st, 2009! John Burroughs, Clinton, North Central, and Waubonsie Valley should just all attend that one!
QUOTE(lghtmycandle16 @ Mar 31 2008, 10:20 AM) [snapback]431301[/snapback]
Wow thanks for posting that Adam. That's very interesting that Clinton actually recieved a few 4th place votes, and 0 1st place. That's something I never saw happening. Also interesting that North Central had a few 1st place votes but ended up getting 3rd because of their 4th place votes, while their actual score had them in 4th. Scoreing by rank is very interesting indeed! It just proves that the top 4 choirs were all Champions. They all deserved to be crowned Grand Champions, the fact of the matter is only one choir could actually recieve the honor. Congrats to Burroughs, Clinton, North Central and Wab Valley for being that close!!
Well, weit's like we all said before the competition... The top 4 at this competition were going to come down PURELY to what the judges preferred... all 4 of these choirs are AMAZING in their own right and i think with NC getting 112444 proves that the judges were fairly split and it was a difficult decision for all of them to pick a winner.
4.1 points between 1st and 4th place at a national competition... AWESOME!!!!
Yes, one of my biggest regrets in life now is, not flying home for fame chi town.
JBPH, Clinton, North central, Waubonsie You are ALL champions!!! I truly believe if this competition was held again 10 times, the outcome would be different every time lol.
Okay...so I am in the airport now, waiting to return to sunny California. This trip has been absolutly fantastic. Thank you to Fame and to Embassy Suites for dealing with a hundred or so over energized teenagers. Chicago was a great experience in all aspects, got to do some shopping and see the art institute! not to mention the fabulous show choirs.
Attache, of course, could you be any less? I was very happy to watch your show, and see the fantastic improvment from pre-lims to finals, I am honored to compete against a not only talented choir, but classy group of people.
North Central, couldn't wait to see you guys again since 06, you guys were great and so many talented soloists!
South Jones, yay!!!! you guys were so fun to watch, I'm so glad we saw you.
WV, really entertaining group of people to sit behind ;) haha, and a really loved your show, seriously a talented group of people congrats!!!!!
Mads, you kicked ass as always, congrats on finaling!!!!!!!
(btw, they're not really our prep group, we have four choirs at JBHS two intermediate "prep" groups, and two advanced groups, one mixed and one all girl, just wanted to make that correction since i kept hearing them being called that, and they really aren't.
so to sum it up, I cannot believe my senior year trip is over, it was full of fantastic memories, thank you to everyone, wish i could have met more of you, but it's okay. Congratulations to everyone!!!!
following is me catching up on responses since i wasn't allowed to purchase internet in the hotel and i used my few moments in the computer area to check college admissions. =)
QUOTE(Häakon @ Mar 26 2008, 07:20 PM) [snapback]430343[/snapback]
We keep things free here on SCC.
hahahahahaha. sorry this just reminded me of last night "so, are you... rich?" Sorry we bombarded your room twice last night Haakon, guess you got put next to the wrong group of girls lol, i really don't know where all the energy came from, but it was a good time! I was glad to hang out with you a little bit, thanks for holding my bracelet!! see you back in so cal!
QUOTE(ambass_007 @ Mar 28 2008, 01:21 PM) [snapback]430644[/snapback]
Has anyone gone to eat yummy chicago deep dish pizza? i think i'm going to "uno" tonight. ah, good stuff, lol
We definitly ate there, not to bad, had a bad waitress, she couldn't hear us...but it was funny. good times =)
although, i don't think any burroughs kids will be eating italian food for a good month ;)
QUOTE(Häakon @ Mar 29 2008, 11:25 AM) [snapback]430749[/snapback]
South Jones was quite good! A little bit 'mini-Clintonesque' perhaps (you can tell where their influence comes from) ;) but still very enjoyable. I especially appreciated the band... great job!
as i texted Haakon, I AGREE! South Jones, you were all very entertaining and I really did like watching your show. Congrats!
QUOTE(SWisSuper @ Mar 29 2008, 08:08 PM) [snapback]430918[/snapback]
chris of powerhouse on the phone. no results yet. keep you posted
The Dexter's are soooo cute! just wanted to add that. haha.
QUOTE(pplplezr @ Mar 30 2008, 06:25 PM) [snapback]431182[/snapback]
The wonderful solo is from Christina Aguilera's "Welcome", while the meat of the song is Michael Jackson's "The Greatest Show on Earth."
Just a little correction following that announcement by the fabulous Andrew Orbison, we sing, ALL of "Welcome" by Cristina, then "Tightrope Walker" then "Greatest Show on Earth" They are three seperate arrangments, not a medley. =)
P.S. Haakon, I'm adding the signature when i get home as promised =P
Wow thanks for posting that Adam. That's very interesting that Clinton actually recieved a few 4th place votes, and 0 1st place. That's something I never saw happening. Also interesting that North Central had a few 1st place votes but ended up getting 3rd because of their 4th place votes, while their actual score had them in 4th. Scoreing by rank is very interesting indeed! It just proves that the top 4 choirs were all Champions. They all deserved to be crowned Grand Champions, the fact of the matter is only one choir could actually recieve the honor. Congrats to Burroughs, Clinton, North Central and Wab Valley for being that close!!
QUOTE(Jorge @ Mar 31 2008, 10:06 AM) [snapback]431298[/snapback]
I am posting this again... because it's updated-
Here are the answers... and the beginning to new questions...
Indeed... John Burroughs had four 1st place votes and North Central had two 1st place votes. Clinton did not receive any, even though it said they had received one. It was a mistake.
In FAME's manual... it states that in finals, they will use rank scoring with the majority rules clause... unless a tie in ranks occurs... it will then be broken with raw scores.
Here are the raw scores-
OVERALL-
John Burroughs- 102.9
Clinton- 100.8
Waubonsie Valley- 98.9
North Central- 98.8
South Jones- 91.9
John Burroughs- 91.5
The real question is this...
In ranks...
Clinton was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which was broken by the points... placing Clinton safely "2nd".
Here is where discrepancy lies...
Waubonsie Valley was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which WAS NOT broken by the points... placing Waubonsie Valley in fourth... when by the rules that FAME states, and used in the instance of Clinton/North Central... would have had them in third...
So...
The actual outcome of this competition, had FAME been consistent with their scoring methods-
Grand Champions- John Burroughs
1st Runner Up- Clinton 2nd Runner Up- Waubonsie Valley
3rd Runner Up- North Central
4th Runner Up- South Jones
5th Runner Up- John Burroughs (girls)
The question now is...
Why didn't FAME do what they said they would do in an event of a tie for Waubonsie Valley / North Central? But they did do it for Clinton / North Central?
It does seem like an over-sight... I'm not implying that FAME was out to get Waubonsie Valley... or favored North Central.
JUDGES- Judith Ranaletta:
1st- North Central
2nd- John Burroughs
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- Clinton
Andrew Drinkall: 1st- John Burroughs
2nd- Clinton
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- North Central
Heath Weber: 1st- John Burroughs
2nd- Clinton
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- North Central
Marty DeMott:
1st- John Burroughs
2nd- North Central
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- Clinton
Damon Brown-
1st- North Central
2nd- John Burroughs
3rd- Clinton
4th- Waubonsie Valley
Anne Chapman-
1st- John Burroughs
2nd- Clinton
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- North Central
So-
John Burroughs- 111122
Clinton- 222344
North Central- 112444
Waubonsie Valley- 333334
Yeah i wasn't saying that you implied that it was a conspiracy or something... But the first post made on this controversy DID imply that...
So,
Now that people know that it was a mistake, is anything going to be done about it by FAME in order to give WV the 3rd place trophy and recognition they deserve???
Here are the answers... and the beginning to new questions...
Indeed... John Burroughs had four 1st place votes and North Central had two 1st place votes. Clinton did not receive any, even though it said they had received one. It was a mistake.
In FAME's manual... it states that in finals, they will use rank scoring with the majority rules clause... unless a tie in ranks occurs... it will then be broken with raw scores.
Here are the raw scores-
OVERALL-
John Burroughs- 102.9
Clinton- 100.8
Waubonsie Valley- 98.9
North Central- 98.8
South Jones- 91.9
John Burroughs- 91.5
The real question is this...
In ranks...
Clinton was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which was broken by the points... placing Clinton safely "2nd".
Here is where discrepancy lies...
Waubonsie Valley was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which WAS NOT broken by the points... placing Waubonsie Valley in fourth... when by the rules that FAME states, and used in the instance of Clinton/North Central... would have had them in third...
So...
The actual outcome of this competition, had FAME been consistent with their scoring methods-
Grand Champions- John Burroughs
1st Runner Up- Clinton 2nd Runner Up- Waubonsie Valley
3rd Runner Up- North Central
4th Runner Up- South Jones
5th Runner Up- John Burroughs (girls)
The question now is...
Why didn't FAME do what they said they would do in an event of a tie for Waubonsie Valley / North Central? But they did do it for Clinton / North Central?
It does seem like an over-sight... I'm not implying that FAME was out to get Waubonsie Valley... or favored North Central.
JUDGES- Judith Ranaletta:
1st- North Central
2nd- John Burroughs
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- Clinton
Andrew Drinkall: 1st- John Burroughs
2nd- Clinton
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- North Central
Heath Weber: 1st- John Burroughs
2nd- Clinton
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- North Central
Marty DeMott:
1st- John Burroughs
2nd- North Central
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- Clinton
Damon Brown-
1st- North Central
2nd- John Burroughs
3rd- Clinton
4th- Waubonsie Valley
Anne Chapman-
1st- John Burroughs
2nd- Clinton
3rd- Waubonsie Valley
4th- North Central
So-
John Burroughs- 111122
Clinton- 222344
North Central- 112444
Waubonsie Valley- 333334
QUOTE(Jorge @ Mar 31 2008, 09:48 AM) [snapback]431291[/snapback]
Here are the answers... and the beginning to new questions...
Indeed... John Burroughs had four 1st place votes and North Central had two 1st place votes. Clinton did not receive any, even though it said they had received one. It was a mistake.
In FAME's manual... it states that in finals, they will use rank scoring... unless a tie in ranks occurs... it will then be broken with raw scores.
Here are the raw scores-
OVERALL-
John Burroughs- 102.9
Clinton- 100.8
Waubonsie Valley- 98.9
North Central- 98.8
South Jones- 91.9
John Burroughs- 91.5
The real question is this...
In ranks...
Clinton was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which was broken by the points... placing Clinton safely "2nd".
Here is where discrepancy lies...
Waubonsie Valley was tied to North Central three judges to three in ranks... which WAS NOT broken by the points... placing Waubonsie Valley in fourth... when by the rules that FAME states, and used in the instance of Clinton/North Central... would have had them in third...
So...
The actual outcome of this competition, had FAME been consistent with their scoring methods-
Grand Champions- John Burroughs
1st Runner Up- Clinton 2nd Runner Up- Waubonsie Valley
3rd Runner Up- North Central
4th Runner Up- South Jones
5th Runner Up- John Burroughs (girls)
The question now is...
Why didn't FAME do what they said they would do in an event of a tie for Waubonsie Valley / North Central? But they did do it for Clinton / North Central?
I'm just amazed at 4.1 points between 1st and 4th!!! thats crazy close... lol. So with the new info, It's WV who should be complaining... It doesn't make a lot of sense. To me it sounds more like an Oversight/Error... Not like Fame did it on purpose to keep clinton in the top 2 like someone earlier implied.
QUOTE(ambass_007 @ Mar 31 2008, 12:19 AM) [snapback]431257[/snapback]
Omg! i'm just glad the discrepancy was NOT for the grand championship of the competition! that would have been CRAZY! nevertheless, it is an issue that must be solved!
That is so true, That would have been even more horrible if the issue was regarding the Grand Champion. It really is a shame that after probably the best night of show choir for the 2008 season a possible scandal or error for 2nd and 3rd place is being discussed rather than the incredible jobs these incredible choirs did.
Thanks for the info Jorge. except now we open up a whole new can of worms lol.
QUOTE(tscott @ Mar 31 2008, 09:01 AM) [snapback]431286[/snapback]
If I'm following what has been alleged correctly, there appears to be two issues:
1) Did actually 4 judges have Burroughs in first place, 2 judges have NC in first and 0 had Clinton, or indeed 3 had Burroughs, 2 NC and 1 Clinton, just not the judges as reported?
2) Was the method of tabulation switched; i.e. using only raw scores and not converting scores into rankings?
Either way in my opinion, NC should have been in Second... If they started Finals with the belief and understanding that the scoring was going to be based on Rankings, not the raw scores, Then even if NC did get 2 1sts to clinton's 1 they should have been 2nd right? Or i guess thats not really true, if clinton got 22222, and nc got 11244 or something like that clinton would average higher... Right? lol, i've never quite gotten the Ranking system...
I'm not sure, I just would kind of like to hear from someone from fame, or From one of the top 3 directors whom i'd assume would have to know what was going on. Anyway...
FAME Chicago 2008
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