Okay- first question. How is the difficulty level of a show NOT in the hands of the director? Doesn't he or she choose the music? and the choose the choreographer, and what kind of choreography the group will have? and control how each of those things are developed? Why should groups with easy shows be punished if groups with poorly designed shows can't be?
I agree with you in part. The difficulty level of a show is primarily in the director's hands. BUT - if a director selects a well-designed show, then that show will be well-designed, and if he or she does not, then it won't. But in the case of difficulty, if a director chooses an extremely difficult show and the group doesn't have the talent to match it, it'll show. Know what I mean? Difficulty also can show in the choir's execution, whereas show design really cannot.
QUOTE(ana @ Apr 12 2007, 09:56 PM) 399652
Moving on... As much as some may not want to believe it, show choir isn't JUST about singing and dancing- which is why show design is already scored at most competitions. Costuming, pace of show, overall effect, etc. Check your scoresheets folks, show design DOES factor into your scores. Anyway, I don't understand why show choirs can't be trusted to aspire for great vocals, great choreography, AND great show design. I trust that most judges, directors and choreographers are aware that strong design is not equal with "big" or "flashy" or "extravagant".
Regarding the first part, I realize that that's the way things are, I'm saying that it shouldn't be. Costuming is completely out of the choir's hands, and also factors into the budget which means different things to different groups (such as a private school compared to an inner-city one), so I am strongly against that being scored. Choirs shouldn't have to think they have to change six times per show, because that's not the case. (See Ankeny for clarification.) Show choir is singing and dancing put together to form a show. It's not a show with some singing and dancing tossed in.
And regarding your last comment, I think we need not look further than many judges' opinions on Best Vocals (meaning, more often than not, the loudest group) to find how they would score show design. The bigger, the "louder", the better.
QUOTE(ana @ Apr 12 2007, 09:56 PM) 399652
Great design encompasses many things, including some you listed above- challenging and educating students, showcasing the talents of the group, entertaining audiences, and inspiring them to feel something. If a director and/ or staff of a group can put all of these things together into a successful show, why shouldn't it be recognized and rewarded?
Obviously there can be great show design with great vocals and choreography, I'm not denying that, I'm just asking what should be scored. There are so many things a judge *could* score about a group, but how many of them are actually relevant? Should the band score be factored into the total group score? What about costuming? Use of props? Name of the group?
One other problem I have with show design is that it's not well-defined enough. Show choir already has a wide range of free roam for judges and subjectivity. Adding a category titled "show design" without having a solid definition of this term could result in even more randomness in results... or worse, having these judges (as I fear) scoring the biggest and flashiest as the best, which makes groups think (as they seem to be doing now with costumes) that they need more, more, more... which in turn raises costs, sends some possible group members away due to costs, and in the end, gets show choir even further and further away from where, in my opinion, it should be: May the best singing & dancing group win.
That's cool. I hope it actually happens though. I can remember in 2005, you guys were supposed to go, and it had to be cancelled due to fundraising issues or something. It was the night before Onalaska, and you guys had a preview performance with Central. They had the parents meeting right there, it was sad.
Amen! Difficulty needs to be a factor, but I don't think show design should be scored. A director should choose a show that is educational and best able to showcase the talents of the choir. A show design caption would lead to sacrificing vocals, choreo, and education for flashier, bigger, more extravagant design, which is not the direction show choir should be heading.
Just my $.02
Okay- first question. How is the difficulty level of a show NOT in the hands of the director? Doesn't he or she choose the music? and the choose the choreographer, and what kind of choreography the group will have? and control how each of those things are developed? Why should groups with easy shows be punished if groups with poorly designed shows can't be?
Moving on... As much as some may not want to believe it, show choir isn't JUST about singing and dancing- which is why show design is already scored at most competitions. Costuming, pace of show, overall effect, etc. Check your scoresheets folks, show design DOES factor into your scores.
Anyway, I don't understand why show choirs can't be trusted to aspire for great vocals, great choreography, AND great show design. I trust that most judges, directors and choreographers are aware that strong design is not equal with "big" or "flashy" or "extravagant".
Great design encompasses many things, including some you listed above- challenging and educating students, showcasing the talents of the group, entertaining audiences, and inspiring them to feel something. If a director and/ or staff of a group can put all of these things together into a successful show, why shouldn't it be recognized and rewarded?
Ill say this agian, if a sports coach calls a bad play...the players can fix it. Players can change a play. If a show is boring what are the students to do? Sneak behind his back and get new costumes....learn a new show...refuse to perform?
The #1 goal of a Director should be to educate....and that can be done very well no matter what kind of show you're doing. I'm all for DIFFICULTY playing into the scoring...but really just because you've seen moves and songs done before doesn't mean they are any less difficult to perform.
Amen! Difficulty needs to be a factor, but I don't think show design should be scored. A director should choose a show that is educational and best able to showcase the talents of the choir. A show design caption would lead to sacrificing vocals, choreo, and education for flashier, bigger, more extravagant design, which is not the direction show choir should be heading.
No, I'm saying we shouldn't separate the directors/coaches and the performers/players contributions so simply. We all can cite examples of being dumbfounded by results when the less-than-exciting show won. I am all for acknowledging good technique -if it's not there, forget attempting anything else - but show choir is art as well. Honoring good technique that lacks art is just as bad as honoring art that has no technique.
Ill say this agian, if a sports coach calls a bad play...the players can fix it. Players can change a play. If a show is boring what are the students to do? Sneak behind his back and get new costumes....learn a new show...refuse to perform?
The #1 goal of a Director should be to educate....and that can be done very well no matter what kind of show you're doing. I'm all for DIFFICULTY playing into the scoring...but really just because you've seen moves and songs done before doesn't mean they are any less difficult to perform.
good players can fix a bad play. Good students can't fix a bad show design. You're pretty much saying teams should get points on how good their uniforms look
No, I'm saying we shouldn't separate the directors/coaches and the performers/players contributions so simply. We all can cite examples of being dumbfounded by results when the less-than-exciting show won. I am all for acknowledging good technique -if it's not there, forget attempting anything else - but show choir is art as well. Honoring good technique that lacks art is just as bad as honoring art that has no technique.
If the basketball or football coach calls a bad play, should the team be allowed a "do over?"
good players can fix a bad play. Good students can't fix a bad show design. You're pretty much saying teams should get points on how good their uniforms look
my only problem with more points being given for show design is it takes some control away from the students. I mean, they can only perform what they are given...if their director gives them a show that people deem "unoriginal" should they really be the ones that are punished if they perform if flawlessly?
i won't deny that everyone has differing tastes, to me, that is obvious and inescapable. however, i do not think that people who dislike Findlay do so out of some invisible obligation to be show choir elitists, or to be unfairly prejudicial against traditional shows. rather, if some of these people are anything like me, they place value in original, creative material. this does not mean that anyone is looking for groups like Findlay to do poorly, or to be judged more harshly than any other group. it only means the prospect of viewing a quality show of all original material is probably more enticing than watching a quality show with that same arrangement of "Too Darn Hot" as the closer.
*the above quote has been amended to only include information relevant to my response, see previous posts in topic for full citation.
i do not disagree with the bolded statement, and yes, Findlay can sing and dance very well. however, when a case occurs of two very excellent schools in competition, one utilising the traditional show with reused numbers and one utilising a more contemporary and diverse show with extremely inventive choreography, it is my belief that the contemporary show should be held in higher regard (given that the technical quality of both shows is very comparable). my reasoning is that every competition should be scored using scoresheets with a show design caption. without such a category, what is to encourage schools to transform technically perfect notes and dancesteps into something more cohesive, into something entertaining? part of show design is originality, creativity - perhaps this can be contested, but not very successfully in my mind - and on those grounds, high quality contemporary shows should be scored higher.
You hit the nail right on the head in that statement! I 100% agree with you. I really think that strongly designed shows deserve recognition by category on a scoresheet. What's amazing is that so many score sheets at comps, DON'T have a category for it. Conceptually, this medium of performing arts REALLY DOES rely on show design but that's not really rewarded at many competitions across the nation. I've seen Findlay this year and while I wasn't insanely impressed, I knew the show was strong. I've seen Findlay shows for years and while their older shows were more original this one is really pretty good. It's so hard to beat Findlay when Findlay has their formula perfectly in motion, which is what I venture to say was the case at FAME NY. I happen to really like Andy Haines and what he does for his groups! While I def. think he's FAR more original with Center Grove and Teays Valley, he does awesome work with Findlay. Fairfield is constantly on the cutting edge of contemporary music, esp. in the show choir sense. Their director seems really eager to try new things and truly be original. That's evident through their opener this year which I think is probably one of the best numbers this year. That being said, it seems that the judges at FAME NY were really into Findlay doing what they do best, however something should and ultimately HAS to be said for Fairfield and groups like them!
FAME was amazing && i loved being able to participate ! All the groups were oustanding.. but my fav number had to be Edgewood's male number--what is the name of the song?.. i love it! & the guy who sings the first sole in that number is an amazing performer..watch out justin timberlake... moves were slick!
Bonita, I didn't get to see you guys in finals, but you blew me away in prelims. Congrats for rocking! Greece Athena, I loved your version of Hide and Seek. The techno thing was totally unexpected, and I truly did enjoy it. And Fairfield, I LOVED Crazy. It's probably my favorite song I've seen all year. You guys rock. Findlay, finding a flaw in your show was near impossible. You guys had the most flawless performance I've seen all year. Congratulations to everybody.
Anybody have a video of the finals? I would appreciate it if somebody were to post videos of the groups that made finals on youtube. Myself and many others would be very thankful.
Also, special thanks to everybody who helped prepare us for this competition, namely Mr. Sparks, Mrs. Meeks, Mr. Butler and Mr. Carroll. You all helped us a lot, and we look forward to continue honing what you guys told us for our final competition at So Cal.
i had an awesome time at FAME n while my group only got 4th runner up i know that everyone in our group was happy to be able to see a variety of groups from all across the nation. Findlay you guys are amazing as u hav probly heard from countless others praising your performance. To Hart u know i love u guys n i am very proud to be able to say that i come from CA just like u. Greece Athena n Fairfield u guys were awesome, very different shows then wat i am used to bein from southern cali but very entertaining nonetheless. Edgewood your show was awesome i loved ur opener and the guys number. Morgantown very interesting show, needed some work like many other choirs includin my own, but was very interested throughout your show n i loved ur rendition of chariot. Overall an awesome competition was glad to see everyone that competed.
No, it's not the number of groups that i was referring to. I feel that a lot of the midwest/southern/eastern groups have very similar formulas to their shows and a lot of it seems the same to me. I realized that there's a handful of awesome choreographers that do a lot of different groups, so their individual styles are very prominent out there. It's hard to watch multiple group back to back that have similar designs/arrangement/choreography/sound as the groups before them. That's what i meant
So the what... 4+ CA groups that did shadowlands this year (yes... i know some did change it) are individual?
There's a standard set-up for a competition style show, and it's been like that for years. Opener - 2nd number - Ballad - guys/girls - Closer. You can rearrange those... make small changes... but it's been the set-up for years. When groups stray away from is it's harder to judge (some WV groups, Greece Athena, some Cali groups too i guess). These "formulated" shows as u call them are still WAY different in many ways. Broadway songs, Rock songs, pop songs, sountry... you get the point... Are you from a newer group that hasnt seen enough to understand that yet?
FAME New York 2007
