It’s hard to say, as Burbank won Musicanship and Sound FX took home Showmanship and 1st place - traditionally time penalties don’t cost groups the “Best in” categories, so it’s possible that they were 3rd anyways. We won’t know for sure until scores are released
Group A gets 600 points in music and 300 points in show.
Group B gets 300 points in music and 600 points in show.
Group C gets 500 points in music and 500 points in show.
Group C wins first place with the most points and no captions. You do not need a caption to win.
And yes, I know the placements for a fact. I am not making a commentary on either the results or the circumstances of the event. It is simply my job to provide objective truth on this website.
Very interesting! Has this ever happened before ? Can you please tell me which choir actually has won without winning a single caption . I'd like to educate myself more about how this works.
A month ago at Rouse in Texas, the winning choir had no captions. Best Vocals went to the group in 4th and Best Choreography went to the group in 3rd. It happens more than you think.
Your question is valid, and I know it might seem like that never happens. Like Will pointed out, however, it happens more frequently than people may realize. Thanks to the power of showchoir.com, I'm able to quickly find examples without having to do much digging:
North Polk 2023 Sauk Prairie 2023 Blue Valley 2023 Mississippi State 2022 Eau Claire Memorial 2022
There are dozens more, but you get the idea. And if you think that's crazy, wait until you find out there are competitions where one group got BOTH captions and still lost first place!
New London 2023 Mt. Vernon 2023 Elkhorn South 2022
Those cases are more rare (and usually have different reasons for the outcomes - you can often find out more information in the comment section for each event). This situation famously happened in California in 2012 at the Southern California Show Choir Invitational where John Burroughs got both Musicianship AND Showmanship but lost to Burbank due to rankings. It caused quite a stir at the time, for obvious reasons.
None of this is to discredit Los Al's show (or Burbank's, for that matter - I personally think this is the closest that all three groups have been in quite some time) - but rather just to clarify and present the record as it actually happened at the competition. The hosts did not announce the time penalty (or the fact that Burroughs would have won) at the award ceremony, just that they placed third (which gives the impression that they scored poorly).
I believe it is important to share all of the information so that the general public (which most times just looks at the ribbons anyway) has a better understanding of what transpired. We have championed for scoring transparency for years - and while it's certainly not something we can force (or even want to - we feel this should be organic from the contest side), when we do have information that affects placements, it is good to clarify.
Per the rules of the Oceanside comp, the penalty is 2 pts for every 15 seconds over time, or 8 points per minute. Burroughs was over by 14 minutes, so it was a pretty hefty penalty: 112 points.
This is double the time penalty that Burroughs incurred at Hart, which was "only" 7 minutes over. There are lots of reasons why it could happen, I suppose, but the 35 minute time limit for advanced mixed divisions has been around pretty much forever.
Something is not adding up here regarding the judging and the placing. Oceanside was not a raw point scoring comp, it was ranked scoring (Condorcet). Do you know what the judge's rankings were?
In show, it's a tie for first using ranks between Los Al and Burroughs, so they went back to points to break the tie. Since Los Al was 0.5 points ahead of Burroughs in show, Los Al wins the caption.
Thus, whether going by points or ranks, Burroughs would have won the competition.
Obviously there was a time penalty, however.
Burroughs was 7 minutes over time, and this competition subtracted 2 points for each 15 seconds that a group went over. That equates to 8 points per minute, for a total penalty to Burroughs of 56 points. Because there were 5 judges, they were penalized 11 points from each judge's overall score (and then ranks were applied using those updated point totals).
Since Burroughs' total score was 563.5 points, they were penalized almost 10% of their overall total for going over time. Given that all three groups were so closely matched, it threw them completely out of contention for any placement.
Hopefully that clears up any confusion about the results.
I would also like to say that I know things can get heated in the midst of competition and everyone works so hard and wants to win. It is important to remember that:
• What we do has subjective components
• At a competition with any three groups, one is going to get 1st and one is going to get 3rd no matter how good any/all of them are
I don't like having to make "corrective" posts about competitions, because it never feels good for anyone. I don't want Los Al kids to come on here and feel like their win isn't valid. I don't want Burroughs kids to feel like all that is communicated is that they got third place and that their show isn't first place-worthy. And I don't like that the discussion between Los Al and Burroughs throws Burbank off to the side when they beat both of the other groups in music and had a tremendous show. ALL of these groups are sensational, period.
It's been brought up many times before, but this is the perfect example of why it is so difficult for any of them to ever have lasting undefeated streaks. I am a long time participant of the California show choir circuit and I do have a deep love for what we do here, but as unbiased as I can possibly be, I do believe in my heart that any of these three groups could have gone go toe-to-toe with any other group in the country this year. I've seen a whole lot of show choir over the years and everyone just fully brought it this season. No one should walk away from this event and feel sad or defeated.
I will say from the point of view of the person who runs this website, I don't like to be the one to have to post scores and set the record straight - we really do need competitions to start making this information more public. This is not a dig on any one competition, but rather a general statement for show choir across the country. Students, parents, and even faculty often have confusion over results, and this is the only activity I know of that isn't fully transparent about how placements play out. Leave judges' names out of it if that's the answer, but I just want everyone who attends an event to feel great about the evening and not have lingering questions or doubts. Competitions should be celebrations, not sources of frustration.
That said, there is much to be joyful about having seen these shows regardless of how the numbers played out. This was a wonderful year and I can't wait for the next one!
Thanks for clarifying. I completely agree that more transparency is better. I can understand why some judges may not want to have their name attached to their score, but at least having the scores out there is better for everyone.
Thanks for all of this information!!!! I fully FULLY agree that scores should be made public. And since I've never been one to shy away from an opinion, judges names should be released, too. Judges should be able to stand behind their scores. I know I have sat there and thought about each show I have judged before giving scores, and I am more than willing to explain every score/placement I've ever given. All judges should feel the same.
Show choir IS subjective. There will always be someone who doesn't agree with you, or is upset you didn't place their group higher.
Per the comp rules: "Timing begins when our stage manager gives your team the cue to begin set-up, and ends when the last member of your team exits the stage area. There is a visible timeclock backstage that provides groups with a running time."
So once the prior group is done teching out and is completely clear of the stage area, the stage manager gives you the cue to go and the clock starts. The 35 minutes allotted to the advanced groups includes all set up, the performance, and the takedown, and the time runs until you are completely cleared out of the stage area. Given that most advanced sets are @20 minutes, that leaves less than 15 minutes total combined for setup *and* takedown
Oceanside Sound-Off! 2023
